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Rake trip no cycles with Bes x scoring brunswick pinsetters

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  • Rake trip no cycles with Bes x scoring brunswick pinsetters

    I have Bes x scoring with Brunswick pinsetters.The last 5 months I've been having alot of rake trip[ no cycles across the house. The only one being a constant is 27&28 lately but still many more. What can I look for? Tech support doesnt tell me much and I'm really getting fed up. I almost want my Frameworx scoring back.Please help.

  • #2
    The first thing to check is your ball sensors. The LED on the back of the sensor should be out (dim in very low light) and should light up when the beam is blocked. The system can cycle the pinsetter if one is misaligned or blocked but will not show ball speed. If one sensor doesn't light up because the ball didn't break the beam, the ball may be ignored. I understand your frustration. A few months after I first got Qubica scoring installed I got 8 lanes of Qubica bumpers installed and one gutter was installed too low. A ball that fell into that gutter early was fine but if it fell into the gutter near the ball sensors the gutter would flex enough to allow the ball to go under the beams.

    As a check, if you remove the top cover of the Six box or F box to a pair on lanes you can watch the blinkenlights as a ball breaks the beams of the sensors.

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    • #3
      I will check the sensors but I believe they are ok. This is happening on numerous lanes and when I call tech support they always tell me it has something to do with my pinsetters, but all my machines worked fine before the install. I was told it may have something to do with my TDM( time delay modules). Is their any truth to that?

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      • #4
        Don't know how things work these days with tech support but I would think if they installed the system, they should come back and get it working properly. ??? Did the problem start as soon as the system was put in?
        Everything has to be Somewhere !!

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        • #5
          I have a whole big mess with 27 & 28. Pinsetters turn on by themselves, reset on their own, new pin solenoid always engaged and the picture I take at front counter is all jumbled. I changed fbox out already and camera board.

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          • #6
            We have had this system for 3 years already but constant issues.

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            • #7
              If you have swapped out the F box and camera board already your lane computer and bowlers terminal are next. Swap each component to a different lane pair and write it all down so you can track what goes where. If the problem moves with a component, you've found the problem. If everything has been swapped to other lane pairs and the problem stays on 27-28 all that's left is LCOM cable. The most likely cable to fail is the one from your F box to the camera board. If you suspect static electricity issues and replace this cable you can use the old one to ground the chassis under the camera board to pinsetter frame.

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              • #8
                Make sure your camera board is earthed

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                • #9
                  What do you mean by this:

                  "alot of rake trip[ no cycles across the house"

                  Do you mean:
                  a) scoring is triggering the machine but the machine doesn't cycle
                  b) the machine is self triggering without ball being thrown

                  I assume you mean they aren't cycling but in your post #5 you talk about machines cycling on their own.

                  The interface between Bes X and the A2 is fairly simple so this shouldn't take to much to sort out each of the problems you listed. Starting with the cycling problem, if it is randomly cycling this could be several things several which aren't even Bes X related. (Not saying they aren't Bes X installation related just maybe not the scoring itself)

                  Start by telling us about how your machine triggers.

                  1) Are the shotguns hooked up. Do they trigger electrically or mechanically?
                  2) Is your tdm providing the delay or are you using Bes X delay features for your machine delay?

                  Random cycling can also be caused by bad manual reset switch circuits. The FBox simply parallels the manual switches so if they messed with the wiring when they installed the scoring they may have messed something up in one of those circuits. I have seen some pretty strange places chosen for tying in the scoring reset. There could be other things to look at but we'll wait to see what you post for answers to questions 1 and 2.

                  If the problem is the scoring is triggering but the machine isn't, then this can also be traced back to installation errors. Some installers will use crappy connectors to splice into the triggering wires. These are notorious for failing. If the signal can't get to the tdm them the machine won't cycle.

                  This could be tdm related without being caused by the tdm itself. All the things listed above could cause the tdm to look like the problem. Other things could as well. You may not even need the tdm depending on how your shotgun fires. If it is electrical and fires from the Bes X then you need to have the tdm. If it's mechanical then you could eliminate the tdm as the Bes X would provide the machine delay.

                  3) What tdm board are you using? Is it the original or the new style with the lockout safety feature?

                  Start by defining your problem a little more clearly and answering these three questions and we can probably get you to a resolution fairly quickly.

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                  • #10
                    Good point HP ! All Components, including the Main Computer should be on an Isolated Ground Electrical Supply. The outlets should look like these. They may or not be orange. The triangle is the key indicator.

                    The "Ground Loop" they talk about is caused when you feed various components of the same system from different feeds, even if they originate from the same panel. Resistance builds up at various points along the wiring system, ie connections, outlets, etc., causing a difference in potential which causes the Ground Loop which we hear as a soft or loud hum, in a PA system. The only way to "Break the Loop" is to feed each component Directly from the same power source. I would see sound systems do this a lot because the sound guy would plug the sound board, located at the back of the room, into an outlet there while feeding the power amps from outlets on the stage. And you would get the hum with the amps on and the board OFF or On !!

                    You will also want high quality surge protectors on all equipment.

                    ALL Files Scanned with MALWAREBYTES PREMIUM Version 3.7.1.2839 and AVAST INTERNET SECURITY Version 18.6.2349

                    Iso Grounded outlet 1.jpgIso Grounded outlet 2.jpg

                    The primary reason for the use of isolated grounds (IG) is to provide a noise-free ground return, separate from the equipment grounding (EG) return. The EG circuit includes all of the metal conduit, outlet boxes, and metal enclosures that contain the wiring and must be grounded to provide a safe return path in case of fault currents. The IG provides an insulated, separate ground path for the ground reference in electronic equipment, such as computers, hospital equipment, and audio equipment. IG does not break ground loops, which can damage equipment like computers, printers, etc.. Interconnected computer equipment often benefits from single-point grounding.

                    IG is only used with special equipment that require it. The IG is typically insulated and separate all the way back to the point of earth grounding rod outside of the building. The IG is NOT connected neutral or any other. Due to the installation of a separate, insulated conductor and the associated special outlets required, IG circuits are more expensive to install than standard power circuits.
                    Everything has to be Somewhere !!

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                    • #11
                      We are located in a large shopping mall. We had all sorts of weird electrical things going wrong with our Qubica setup. Turns out the earth rod wasn't adequate. Landlord had to get electrician to install a dedicated earth rod. We then ran a large earth wire loop to each and every camera board, along with the F boxes. This cleared up our problems.

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                      • #12
                        I am having problems with the rake tripping and not cycling. All the ones I have seen do this, their is no score and no ball speed either. Which makes me believe its a scoring deal not pinsetter. I have ground wires run under my pinsetters ran by certified electricians. Besides the grounds up in the Supertouches, thats all I know of for grounds. My shotguns are run electrically through the scoring. The eyes send the info to reset pinsetter. I have ice cube relays in my electrical box for the new pin solenoid system. My top wire on microswitch, upper right corner of electrical box is disconnected but other 2 are on. I also have some of both TDM's. When I get this problem I get it on both styles.

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                        • #13
                          How are the shotguns wired in? Do the shotguns and cycle solenoids fire off the same scoring circuit or 2 different ones?

                          Does this only happen when the scoring expects a first ball? The second ball light circuit can cause cycle with no score if it has voltage when the scoring expects a first ball.

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