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82-70 SS blowing Mechanics breaker when switched on

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  • 82-70 SS blowing Mechanics breaker when switched on

    82-70 SS with XOP boards blowing Mechanic's breaker when machine is switched on.
    Backend comes on, pit light comes on, breaker blows. I have tried this chassis on 3 machines with the problem following the chassis.Also have swapped boards and the problem stays with the chassis. This is a spare chassis so not a really big deal but would like to get it working . Any suggestions?
    Thanks in advance

  • #2
    Are you referring to the master circuit breaker on the rear control panel. It would be odd that a problem here would follow the chassis. The chassis already provides power to this at the same time it provides power to the pit light so there isn't really much else the chassis can do to cause this to trip. The safety stop switch would cause this to trip but that is external to the chassis. Just looking for clarification so we can help you out.

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    • #3
      Yes master breaker on the rear control panel.
      Replaced BE relay in chassis as well as rewiring C1 plug, also replaced T2 transformer.
      Changed M, M2 and SP relays.
      Checked for bad wiring, shorts on Motherboard.
      Next T1 transformer dead short??

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      • #4
        Looking further back in time for this chassis, when problem started someone had rewired C1 machine side. Wire which should have been at 46 was at 35.
        Table was going up and down in a continuous cycle. Wire was relocated to correct but this chassis has not worked since.
        Hope to get this running by tomorrow as I don't like leaving this Center without out spare since I live about 3,370 km away and won't be back til June.

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        • #5
          By Safety Stop switch you mean the Red panic button next to the power plug on the wireway?

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          • #6
            That is not present on these machines.

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            • #7
              To me it sounds like a dead short somewhere. There could be a rouge nut sitting somewhere unhelpful.

              Peter

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              • #8
                Working that idea right now.

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                • #9
                  There are two different types of breakers used. The MP chassis uses a 6 terminal breaker whereas the SS uses a 4 terminal breaker. Someone correct me if this is wrong. Yours could have been changed when the chassis was upgraded to the XOP. I'm not sure what all they do with the upgrade.

                  The main thing is to find out what you are dealing with. Since you are in a hurry, I'm going to throw several things out there and if something doesn't apply ignore it.

                  The big red button next to the main plug would be the safety stop switch. Not all machines were equipped with them. There may also be a CIS (circuit interrupt switch) which would be wired parallel to the stop switch. This would be a micro switch located inside the cover that protects the C1 and C2A plugs. This would trigger the breaker in the event this cover was left open when the machine was turned on. However, both of these switches are external to the chassis and so it is unlikely these are the problem since they would not have moved with the chassis.

                  This problem could also happen when the breaker starts to fail. However, once again, this problem would not move with the chassis.

                  At this point and in the effort of quickly resolving this, I would open the back control panel up. Determine if your breaker is the 4 or 6 terminal type. Both types use a set of contacts at terminals A and B. These need to remain connected for the pinspotter to fire up.

                  Terminals E and F go to the safety switch. These terminals go to a coil inside the breaker. One side is tied to ground and the other is given power when the safety switch is pressed and trips the breaker. If you don't have the safety switches then there shouldn't be anything on these terminals. If you have something on them then we will need to determine where they go. For now, disconnect both of these terminals remembering which wire goes where. Take a picture for future reference. If there is a short in this circuit, this should allow the pinspotter to at least fire up without tripping the breaker.

                  The other set of terminals on the 6 terminal breaker (C and D) is used in series with the T1 secondary that supplies voltage to the spot and M2 relays on the MP chassis. This is another coil inside the breaker that will trip in the presence of excess current like a normal breaker would. You shouldn't have these but I can't say 100%. This would protect those circuits in the event of those components failing. It also protects in the event the varistor on the spot relay fails. The SS chassis uses a different configuration but someone may have made changes.

                  In any event, if you have wires on C and D, remove them both.

                  With all the wires removed from C, D, E, F (leave A and B connected), the machine should turn on without tripping the breaker. A and B are contacts and not connected to a coil so they wouldn't cause the breaker to trip. You may not have full function but the machine should turn on and stay on at this point. If there is a short then by removing the wires, you should have isolated the circuit so it doesn't cause damage.

                  UNPLUG THE MACHINE WHEN MAKING CHANGES TO THE WIRING. THE MACHINE IS STILL LIVE WHEN THE BREAKER TRIPS SO REMOVE THE CORD TO POWER DOWN.

                  I don't like doing this but given that your in a hurry we'll go this route. If the machine now turns on, then one at a time, start connecting the wires back onto their respective terminals. Attach E and check. Then remove E and connect F and check. Then reconnect both and check. Note the wire that causes the breaker to trip and this is where you need to start your trace. See where the wire goes, start removing components in it's path, and look for damaged wires. When a wire is disconnected at both ends, check the wire for a short to ground and line. There may be a short somewhere you can't see and with both ends isolated, there should be no short to either ground or line.

                  The wire that goes to TSC-2 which is the terminal in the back of the control box should be a black wire and should have been connected to terminal E on the breaker. Since this is tied to ground anyhow, it's not likely your problem. If the wire was shorted to line voltage then both sides of the breaker would be at line voltage and so it wouldn't cause it to trip. If it was shorted to ground, well, that's where it goes anyhow.

                  The other wire connected to F on the breaker should be a red wire. This would normally go to the red safety stop switch and/or the CIS described above. If you don't have either of these, then you need to find out where this wire goes. This red wire and where it leads would likely be the source of the fault. Normally this ties into the same wire that supplies the pit light with it's power so it's off at the same times the pit light is off. This would be why the machine trips the breaker when powered up, because the circuit doesn't energise until the machine is turned on. Normally, this would lead to suspicion of the stop switch if it tripped upon startup.

                  If you hook E and F up and the breaker doesn't trip and if you have wires on C and D, then you need to troubleshoot them in a similar manner. I don't know where these would go in your machine.

                  It's important to remember that the problem followed the chassis when you moved it so the problem lies in the chassis so one of the components or a short. By determining which circuit is causing the breaker to trip leads us to the suspect components.

                  Post back with other questions.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks ExMech.
                    I'll tackle that in the morning.

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                    • #11
                      Good morning.
                      So my SS chassis has the 4 terminal breaker in the Back End (mechanic's) control panel.
                      Removed wires from C and D. Machine runs perfectly.
                      Reinstall C ... Runs perfect.
                      Reinstall D ... as expected shorts out
                      Disconnect C .... Runs perfect.

                      Time to trace wires to chassis and in.

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                      • #12
                        C on circuit breaker to wire #R15 to C2A 22J
                        D on circuit breaker toTSA5 to ground and C2A 12F, C2A 35U
                        and now into the chassis from C2A 22J

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                        • #13
                          And that leads straight back into T1

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                          • #14
                            Just spent a bit of time deciphering diagrams. It looks like this circuit is for scoring. As I don't use that system can I safely bypass that wire in the chassis until I get a new transformer?
                            Again chassis is a spare and not likely to be needed.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Looks like your setup is similar to MP chassis. Not exact but close. Below is a pic of the MP setup.

                              Terminals C and D detect excess current. I believe this is a 1 amp 2 second delay. So if you are setup as the MP chassis is then this is probably serving the T1 secondary and the M2 (sweep reverse on MP) and spot solenoid. So the problem would be in one of these or the wires serving them. That is provided it is setup to copy the MP chassis.

                              The D terminal goes to ground so lets focus on the other terminal.

                              This means the T1 secondary, spot solenoid or M2. Disconnect the C terminal from the breaker again to isolate the circuit. Then take an ohm meter and check across the coils of these components individually to see which one is low. You can check a new component or one in another chassis to see what the value of a good component should be but you'll probably find one that is 0 across the coil terminals indicating an internal short or 0 from one of the terminals to ground. The check to ground may also indicate a wire shorting to ground so if you find a component that's 0 to ground, disconnect it from the circuit and test again. If the component still shows short to ground then the component is the problem. Go ahead and check the wire also to confirm it's not also shorted to ground.

                              This would trip the breaker because a problem with the control side of these components not the load side where the contacts are. For example this means the coil of the relay not the component it serves like the spot solenoid.
                              Attached Files

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