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No spot after strike


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  • No spot after strike

    I have a lane that intermittently has no spot after a strike, I have changed omegatek, chassis. When you get to the machine the sweep is down, grippers closed, 1st ball light is still on, I'm presuming that the 1st ball light staying on is the cause but what turns the ball light off in a strike cycle. I haven't done anything with the micros as not having any issues with b1 or 2

  • #2
    Bin switch anomaly?
    There! Try to NOT work now!


    • #3
      Have been thinking of changing that but didn't think it would be the cause but might try it


      • #4
        From the expander manual, check the SB cam switch. See picture below.

        If this doesn't work, perhaps a little more detail on where the machine is at when this happens.

        Is the sweep at 1st or 2nd guard?
        What position is the table in? Did the table detect for pins?
        Is this an Omega chassis or a 5 board converted to Omega?
        Does the pin count come from the scoring or does the table detect for standing pins?

        Let us know what you find.
        Attached Files


        • #5
          Also: What do you do to get it going again. Knowing what you clear may tell where the problem lies.


          • #6
            Will look at the SB cam micro
            The sweep is at second guard
            table at zero, felt for pins grippers closed
            5 board chassis converted to omegatek board
            Pin count from scoring


            • #7
              Are you using expander cards or still have respot cell wires in place?


              • #8
                I'm not sure I was clear when I asked if the pin count came from scoring or table detection. I meant from the perspective of the chassis, not the scoring. In other words, does your table detect every time or do you have expander cards that get the information from the scoring to determine how to run each cycle.

                If you have expander cards then the table shouldn't even perform a detection cycle in the event of a strike. The scoring should report a strike and the expander card should set the inhibit to prevent the table from detecting. In your post you said that the table would detect, close the grippers and return to 0 where it would stop. If you have expander cards then I would suspect you have lost communication between the chassis and scoring or machine is starting to run before the scoring gets the signal to the machine.

                In the event the scoring doesn't get a pin count signal to the chassis in time, the chassis will resort to what it knows and will cause the default table detection to occur. As we were reminded recently, if the expander card isn't wired correctly, then when it defaults to using the table for detection, it can cause the chassis to not literally but essentially lock up. This is caused by placing the green wire from the sweep reverse connection on the wrong side of the sweep relay coil. Under normal conditions when the scoring gets the data to the chassis in time the chassis will use that information and so you wouldn't notice the lockup caused by the misplaced wire. But in the event a error occurs with the scoring getting the pin count to the chassis then the default table detect will run and the faulty connection would cause the system to lockup.

                Here is a link to that other post. While it was never confirmed that the machine would cycle correctly with scoring, he did indicate his problem was occurring when cycled from the rear of the machine. In that case the chassis would't get a signal from the scoring and so it would default to table detection and so the problem with the misplaced wire occurs.


                If this fit's your situation, then finding the reason the scoring isn't reporting to the chassis should solve the problem. You should also verify the green wire from the expander is attached to the correct side of the sweep relay but that may make the machine complete it's cycle but wouldn't solve the communication issue which would also affect the short strike, 7/10 pick off and quick gutter which also rely on the communications. If it doesn't fit your situation then post back what you find.

                This may not be the problem but it's a place to start.


                • #9
                  Changed SB & still did it, don't have expander cards, no table wiring, the table will run everytime
                  In regards to what I do to clear the issue I zero the machine the sweep goes back up I cycle the machine, the sweep runs through machine spots a new deck


                  • #10
                    If you don't have expander cards and the table wires are removed, how does the chassis get it's information as to strike or standing pins? Probably a board I'm not familiar with but with the table wires removed it must get this from the scoring like the expander cards do. Can you clear this up?

                    To answer your earlier question as to what turns the 1st ball light off, on the original 5 board setup, this happened at table 260 first cycle when the TA2 switch changed state. There were other conditions that had to be met but this is the time that it all came together.

                    What do you do in order to get the machine running again? I think I asked this before but I don't recall an answer.

                    I'm not sure how much this is helping. Maybe a call to Stahl's Seventy's would speed the troubleshooting up for you but I will continue to do what I can to help out.


                    • #11
                      On a dumb machine (no pin data connection to scoring), the strike cycle comes from scoring. The f box utilizes a relay whose contacts open when there is a strike which releases the ground for the respot cell circuit. Another part of this configuration is that when there is a gutter/7-10 pickoff, scoring will flip the machine to 2nd ball instead of running the first ball cycle. How this relates to the original problem, I'm uncertain, but I would swap f boxes just to be sure the ground is not releasing correctly

                      Billy T


                      • #12
                        Thanks Billy. That helps clear that up a bit. I did not know that.

                        I went back to the Omega-Tek manual and looked into your problem a little more. I compared the differences between a standing pins and a strike condition. Based on what Billy said, I would say if you weren't getting the strike signal from scoring, i.e. the spotting cells were to stay grounded then you wouldn't get a strike cycle at all. This is a go or no go situation and since you do run standing pins when they exist but not when there are no pins, then it's probably safe to assume that it's getting the strike signal where ever it comes from.

                        So. Going back to the differences between strike and standing pin and addressing your first ball light a little further. From the Omega-Tek manual it states: Also, as the table passed 260 degrees, C and C(bar) inverted causing a pulse at U7-6. This caused the first ball light to go off (2nd ball is held off by the strike memory). (See picture one below)

                        Working off of this, ball 1 should go off at 260 table first cycle irregardless during a strike cycle. It will go off at 260 second table cycle for standing pins but this is a separate process. The only activity that happens at 260 is TA2 changes state as pointed out earlier. If you look at the cam states below, this is the only input that changes at 260. So working off of this, I would say the next step would be to look into TA2 N.C. This is what signals the input circuit controlling C and C(bar) discussed above for turning ball light 1 off. I assume C and C(bar) not inverting has something to do with the table waiting at 0 but I didn't dig into this. I've include the part of the schematic from the 5 board that addresses this below but I think the Omega-Tek descriptions match these as far as signals go. From this diagram, you can see that TA2 through C2A-211 and TS33 supplies the signal to toggle C and C(bar).

                        You can back probe C2A-211 in the chassis and monitor it's voltage as the table passes 260 during a strike. You should be able to see it change state. If it doesn't change state then you've got a bad switch, wire or connection at either TS33 or C2A-211.

                        You said you changed the chassis so I'm going to assume you changed a known good chassis into this machine. Did you also put the chassis from this machine into another to make sure the chassis works in another machine. If swapping chassis didn't resolve it then it pretty much has to be external or in the C2A connector. If it's not the bin switch causing it to wait for pins then the cam switches are about the only other inputs there are. If it was a malfunctioning off spot switch then the sweep shouldn't sweep but you said it came to rest at 2nd guard so we can probably eliminate that. Unless I'm missing something, I cannot think of anything else outside of the chassis that could cause this besides TA2.

                        Update us as you progress through this.
                        Attached Files


                        • #13
                          It could be the chassis, also check the three wires coming from the FBOX to the Tac board in the machine.


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