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FrameWorks Ball Lift intermittently turning off and on.

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  • FrameWorks Ball Lift intermittently turning off and on.

    I have a ball lift that is turning on and off. Have changed lift motor, lower tire hub assembly(clutch bearing was worn out), both relays in control box, checked all connections in control box. Sometimes the lift motor shuts off completely. Pressing CB3 on pinsetter CPU will turn lift motor back on. Any ideas are welcome. Thanx

  • #2
    cb3 protects the 24vdc so must have a short there somewhere could be wire underlane to ball return may of got squashed
    im never wrong just askme

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    • #3
      Ya thats what I am thinking to. I am going to pull that wire and run another. Do you know of a way to test the relays in ball lift control box? I know how to test solenoids and micro switches but not sure on relays.

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      • #4
        with the relay just swap with another working machine would be the best way and if it works
        im never wrong just askme

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        • #5
          Ya for sure that method works but I would like to find a way to test them with volt meter or similar device. Numbers and values make me feel more comfortable.

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          • #6
            Glad to see you want to learn to troubleshoot with a meter. We can help you with that as we try to find your problem.

            A couple things stick out. You said that it turns on and off but it also trips CB3 in the pinsetter. It doesn't sound like CB3 trips every time the ball lift shuts off though. Is this correct?

            Are you sure it's CB3 that is tripping? CB3 protects the 24 VDC circuit while it is the 28 VAC circuit protected by CB4 that supplies power to the ball lift. If it's the 24 VDC circuit (CB3) that is tripping then I would lean towards a board issue. The 24 VDC circuit supplies the voltage for K1 which is the relay that then supplies the 28 VAC to the ball lift to turn it on. So if CB3 is tripping then that would shut off the ball lift because it kills the power to K1 relay. However, this should also shut other things off as well and you didn't mention that. A problem in the 28 VAC circuit would not cause CB3 to trip because they are isolated from each other so nothing downstream from there would be the problem and that's why I say a possible board issue if CB3 is in fact tripping.

            Below is picture of a standard ball lift control box. Yours may or may not look like this one. If you don't have 24 volt fans then you probably don't have the transformer. The transformer does not provide the power for the relays. That comes from the pinsetter.

            Also, this shows two relays and you may only have one. When two pinsetters are controlling one ball lift then you need a relay for each pinsetter. However, the GS98 uses a consolidated box so it decides when the ball lift needs turned on and only sends out the one signal that handles both machines. If you do have two relay's then it's a good chance only one is being used so that means you have spares. Yeah.

            In the red circle in the attached picture, you see an A, B, 6 and 9. A and B are the 28 volt coil terminals. These are what receive the 28 VAC from the pinsetter. When the ball lift is on, you should have 28 VAC when measuring between these terminals. If you have two relays, you will only have this voltage at one of the relays since the pinsetter is only sending out the one signal. I'll get into that further later. It's possible someone jumped the two relays when it was installed but again we'll look into that later.

            Terminals 6 and 9 are the high voltage contacts that switch the motor on and off. With two relays, these are wired in parallel as shown in the picture. You may note that 6 from the left relay goes to 9 on the right relay and 9 from the left goes to 6 on the right. That's ok, that doesn't matter. If you follow the far right black wire from the master switch at the top of the control box, you see it goes into terminal 6 of the left relay. This should be hot as long as there is power to the ball lift and the master switch is on. Terminal 9 of the left relay is the switch leg. This goes on to the motor. The white wire from the switch at the top goes directly to the motor. So by switching the black wire, this controls power to the motor when the relay is energised. You should have high voltage between the white wire and terminal 6 at all times. You should have high voltage between the white wire and terminal 9 only when the relay is energised. Again, yours may be different identification and you may use the right relay (or both) depending on how it was hooked up.

            Now onto the trouble shooting. If the circuit breaker doesn't trip every time the ball lift shuts off, then when the ball lift is malfunctioning, I would check the relay in the ball lift control box. You obviously can't do this while the ball lift is working correctly because everything would check out good. You can use a meter set to VAC to measure the voltage at the coil terminals of the relay as described above (not the high voltage contacts). If you are missing the voltage at the coil then there is no control signal from the pinsetter and we will have to track that down. If you have voltage at the coil terminals but the relay isn't activating, then you have a bad relay.

            If you have voltage at the coil terminals and the relay is energised, then check the high voltage. When measured to the white wire and with the relay energised, you should get high voltage (120 or 240) to each of the contact terminals (6 and 9). If you don't have voltage at either terminal, then you aren't getting high voltage into the box or the master switch is off or defective. If you get voltage at only one of the terminals when the relay is energised, then the contacts are bad and the relay needs replaced.

            There is a lot more we can check depending on what you find out from these simple tests. It will you longer to read this and certainly longer for me to write it than it will take to do these tests. To avoid writing further tests that do not apply I will wait to see what you find. We can go through everything if you want but for now let's tackle the problem at hand. Taking the time to learn this now though will save you time in the future.

            One further note. If you have the safety switch installed, this would interrupt the control signal from the pinsetter to the relay when it opens. So if you have it installed then make sure it is working properly. That could easily be the problem and we'll discuss troubleshooting it as needed.

            I hope this is what you were looking for. If not just say so. If your box doesn't match what I've shown here, post a picture of what you have and I can help you identify everything. Let me know what you find out.
            Attached Files

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            • #7
              Holy moly, thats what im talking about. My control box has 2 relays but definitely looks a bit different. I will get a pic and post it. I had the same lift go out again after about a month of no problems. I was up poking around today before I saw this post. What I noticed is that the bottom relay is closed/energized while I am using lane 13. Top relay is open. I watched the relay through a magnifying glass while pressing reset button and saw a moment where relay opened slightly and closed back up. My lift seems to intermittently turn on and off when sweep is dropping or ball is in pit. Like pinsetter vibrations might be causing it.

              I have already ruled out the underground wire being damaged by running new wires above ground from "ball Lift" P9 on consolodated electronics to lift control box. Lift cut out minutes after I started lane up. I also noticed that this issue seems to happen in first 20 minutes or so that lane is turned on. After I start running it and trying to find the problem it seems to go away. I have changed every molex terminal on lift power wires from consolodated electronics to lift control box. Checked continuity on all wires as well.

              No CB3 does not trip every time. If lift shuts down for more than a minute then I push CB3 and it turns back on. But most of the time the lift just shuts down for a few seconds then comes back on.I will do all of these tests you have listed above and get back to you with all of the values. Thank you very much.

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              • #8
                Well I have the photo but need to get a "C" type adapter to upload photo. I have the box that has 2 relays. Both are on right side of control box while facing box. There is an upper and lower relay. I turned on both lanes but only bottom relay is closed. Upper is still open?

                I feel kinda dumb because I did know that CB4 was the 28V CB and that CB3 is 24V system. I should have realized that.

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