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  • Reset solenoid

    Guys I need some help. I have a machine that is powering this solenoid constantly. I am honestly embarrassed because I know very little about this, but I'm not certain what all can power it. We have standard A's with AS90 scoring and zot triggering. I've never had an issue with these so I know very little about them, and my manuals give me no info on them. Can anyone explain how it is used please. Thank you guys.

  • #2
    What do you mean power constantly. Do you mean it triggers then releases then triggers then releases, etc. Or do you mean it pulls in and stays pulled in. The picture looks like the plunger is not pulled in. If it's on constantly then it could be fused contacts on the relay or it could be a reset switch on the ball return or the mechanics reset switch sticking.

    Do you have time delay modules?

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    • #3
      Try disconnecting the reset button at the cannon plug on the electrical box that runs to the ball rack to see if it stops recycling.

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      • #4
        The recycle relay is on the left side bottom as you look in the electrical box. That relay could be stuck closed. Or, as jbl says, it could be it's energized and the reset button could be stuck, or look for wires from the 2 pole cannon plug on top through the machine to where it goes along the ball track to look for insulation gone or that wire laying on the ball track - clear up to the lift where the wire may be shorted before it gets to the reset button.
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        This post is not an unpaid promotion of my business.

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        • #5
          The 3 previous posts are most likely right on, but again if you have have the original "older relays" the release spring gets weak and the relay remains "closed" AFTER being energized. We would bend the release spring tab down to correct this. If you couldn't bend it down far enough, we would remove the mounting screw on the bottom, put a few washers under it, and bend it more until it released quickly. Did the same to the motor start relay which is very critical. May want to look at this post. Preventative Maintenance - Jet Back Booster & A2 Accelerator Control Boxes

          Did this to my Motor Start and Reset Relays also.






          Everything has to be Somewhere !!

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          • #6
            Here is the info on conversion.

            Contact 3a C.jpgContact 2 C.jpgContact 4a C.jpg Note I used All 3 of the contacts on the reset relay.
            Everything has to be Somewhere !!

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            • #7
              The picture you posted is for the cycle solenoid, not the recycle relay in the electric box.
              I still have these solenoids mounted on the detector.

              When you say Zot triggering, does that mean you have the Zot time delay module?
              If so, they use very small relays on the PCB, and after a few years the relay contacts will get burned and stuck together, causing this problem.
              Try replacing the time delay module, and your problem should be fixed.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by exMech View Post
                What do you mean power constantly. Do you mean it triggers then releases then triggers then releases, etc. Or do you mean it pulls in and stays pulled in. The picture looks like the plunger is not pulled in. If it's on constantly then it could be fused contacts on the relay or it could be a reset switch on the ball return or the mechanics reset switch sticking.

                Do you have time delay modules?
                Yes the solenoid will pull in and stay pulled in for up to a minute at a time in some situations. It's random when it does it of course. I have the old style 2 pole reset relays and I watched as this was happening and did not see it energize and pull down like it normally would to trip the solenoid. But like you guys are suggesting if the contact points are making contact due to age and wear then I may not see that correct? I understood that the reset buttons trip it but what was confusing me is the relay itself not pulling down to power the solenoid. The zot magic eye boxes we use is our time delay module. We don't have typical time delays like the A2's. We had an issue with our triggering on that lane the day before so we tried a new zot box and it started triggering, then this started happening. We put the old zot box back on and it works now, so I thought possibly a short in my zot wiring could cause the issue I'm having now with the solenoid but I wasn't sure if it was tied into this solenoid, or just the gearbox clutch solenoid

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                • #9
                  As the contacts on the relay open and close an arc is created that will pit the contacts and can eventually cause them to fuse together and not open when the coil releases. This can cause the solenoid to stay energized. This can result in an intermittent problem.

                  You should be able to see the relay open and close these contacts as you trigger it. It would be strange not to see this movement yet have the solenoid energize unless the contacts were fused as explained above. One easy test to see if the coil circuit is the problem is to simply pull one of the coil wires off the relay when the problem is happening and see if the solenoid de-energizes.

                  If one of the switches say like the ball return was sticking then it would keep the relay energized and so the solenoid would stay energized as well.

                  I think your problem lies in the Zot. These as well as other similar systems have to be lined up to prevent the solenoid from activating. I'm not sure if your system has a timeout mechanism but ours (not a Zot) would stay activated as long as the beam was broken. So if they aren't lined up properly it will take on the appearance that a ball is breaking the beam and keep the solenoid activated. It's easy to get these out of alignment and easier to overlook them as a possible problem. When you put the new one on you might not have had it perfectly aligned so it worked sometimes and not sometimes. When you put the old one back on you got it aligned better. One may be more sensitive to this than the other. It also doesn't exclude the new one from being bad but not likely. I'm almost willing to bet on an alignment issue. If the old box works now that may have been the issue with it as well.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by exMech View Post
                    As the contacts on the relay open and close an arc is created that will pit the contacts and can eventually cause them to fuse together and not open when the coil releases. This can cause the solenoid to stay energized. This can result in an intermittent problem.

                    You should be able to see the relay open and close these contacts as you trigger it. It would be strange not to see this movement yet have the solenoid energize unless the contacts were fused as explained above. One easy test to see if the coil circuit is the problem is to simply pull one of the coil wires off the relay when the problem is happening and see if the solenoid de-energizes.

                    If one of the switches say like the ball return was sticking then it would keep the relay energized and so the solenoid would stay energized as well.

                    I think your problem lies in the Zot. These as well as other similar systems have to be lined up to prevent the solenoid from activating. I'm not sure if your system has a timeout mechanism but ours (not a Zot) would stay activated as long as the beam was broken. So if they aren't lined up properly it will take on the appearance that a ball is breaking the beam and keep the solenoid activated. It's easy to get these out of alignment and easier to overlook them as a possible problem. When you put the new one on you might not have had it perfectly aligned so it worked sometimes and not sometimes. When you put the old one back on you got it aligned better. One may be more sensitive to this than the other. It also doesn't exclude the new one from being bad but not likely. I'm almost willing to bet on an alignment issue. If the old box works now that may have been the issue with it as well.
                    These Zot boxes have led lights on the front to let you know that the beam is lined up properly. It has 4 lights on the front and all 4 lights are on. I've seen them work with as little as one light on and not give me trouble..Also, as far as I know, the zot only triggers my gearbox solenoid under normal circumstances, and the reset relay itself is completely bypassed..Meaning, that when the ball breaks the beam, my reset relay isn't used to trip the machine, it is done solely on its own with the solenoid on the gearbox itself.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You have two solenoids on your machines? Usually it's just one or the other. If that's the case then yeah, you would have to figure out which one is activated by which devices/buttons.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by exMech View Post
                        You have two solenoids on your machines? Usually it's just one or the other. If that's the case then yeah, you would have to figure out which one is activated by which devices/buttons.
                        Yes it's a very unnecessary use of parts I agree. We have a the gearbox clutch solenoid, and the reset solenoid. To my best knowledge, the reset solenoid is used for; reset buttons, and no tap strikes to set new pins on a 9 count. And I always thought the zot was strictly ball triggered, nothing else. I've got another question for you Mech, I'll shoot you a message. Thanks to all you guys for your help. I'll see what i can come up with and get back to you.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So far it seems that a new reset relay has it taken care of. Thanks guys

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