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  • detector lever assembly 100267

    okay, mod A machines. every so often I get a respot call on 12. the pindeck is empty, so I am guessing the machine detected pins but the scissors never grabbed them. this doesn't happen every ball, just sporadically through the league. I was looking through my really worn service manual (I love that thing, use it all the time. even after 10 years on the job.) anyway, page 132 complaint 44 #2. it talks about the level assembly 100267. I cannot find that number anywhere. green index book, parts book, I have rebuilt a few detectors in my day but never came across this. any ideas?
    <---- You are getting sleepy, very sleepy. When you wake-up you will want to bowl more. . . .

  • #2
    I can't answer your question about the part number. However, I don't believe the problem is detector rod related.
    Have you got automatic out of ranges fitted?

    Comment


    • #3
      sorry, I was talking about the detector assembly, specifically the scissor operation part of it. the detector rod is working fine, if it didn't I would be greeted by a full set of pins on the deck. but what I am seeing is an empty deck, and the machine waiting for the second ball to be thrown.
      <---- You are getting sleepy, very sleepy. When you wake-up you will want to bowl more. . . .

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      • #4
        I believe you are talking about the Standing Pins Selector. Also check your "flag adjustment" to CYA. See attached repair if you don't have the part. I believe the numbers have also changed. Would also check to see if the scissors are operating freely, no broken bolts on the main scissor bellcrank,etc.

        Standing pin Selector.docx
        Everything has to be Somewhere !!

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        • #5
          i'll check it out when I come back in in the morning.
          <---- You are getting sleepy, very sleepy. When you wake-up you will want to bowl more. . . .

          Comment


          • #6
            The picture below is the modern equivalent. The newer detectors have bearings instead of the lobes. The lever they are referring to bending in step 2 is the strike selector. You can easily see if it's blocking from the top. It would need to barely blocking it to have an intermittent problem. If it's well set its not likely the problem. I would check the moving deck/scissors latch adjustment first before bending and filing on the levers mentioned in the manual. This controls the operation of the moving deck scissor selector via the D shaft on the detector.
            Attached Files

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            • #7
              If you have auto OOR it's possile that the machine is detecting an OOR pin but failing to lock out the rake. The rake sweeps the deck, machine goes to second ball awaitng the second ball to be thrown. This scenario closely aligns to your random respots.
              The default action of the machine is to close the scissors. In the event of the moving deck scissor latch binding you would have the scissors closing and the moving deck not shifting resulting in a deck jam with all buckets being double fed.
              In the event of the D shaft binding you would experience the machine setting pins from detecting height as the strike cam follower failed to rotate which results in the deck lowering hook being unblocked.

              If the only symptom you have is the machine is on second ball and no pins on the deck check the OOR function.

              Comment


              • #8
                Check the links on the scissors. If 1 comes off of the rivets It can block all the scissors from closing. Sometimes the loose link will rotate and allow the scissors to close a few times and then... rotate again and block the scissors again.
                let me be myself

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                • #9
                  I hope I didn't leave the impression to start bending and filing selectors. That's was just one of the possible fixes per the manual. You asked what that part # applied to, (100267). It is the Standing Pin Selector if you compare the diagram in my #4 post with the new pics I've included here. It has a very distinctive addition to it which you won't find on any of the newer machines, (Red Arrow). The Yellow arrow shows the Strike selector, (part # 100272). These are 3000 Serial #s. And as exM said, these are totally different now, (with different part #s), as they are no longer metal to metal, but have bearings to ride the cam. I will say this, my machines are 60+ years old, all original detectors with metal to metal followers, and I have never had to modify any of the followers and they detect pins just fine. The story I got, (don't know if it is true, need to ask Steve, James or Mike, is that there was an early option controllable from the manager's desk where a second solenoid was mounted to the other set of "ears" on the detector. The manager could hit a switch which would energize the second solenoid connected to the Standing pins selector projection, (Red arrow), keeping the machine on second ball during practice). No clue if this is true. I agree with exM, start with the MD/Scissor Selector, "Flag", adjustment first, then binding scissors as billman stated, and then Hp's suggestion.

                  In addition, I have 3 more pieces in my detector and a spring, (Green & Blue arrows). When you physically move the center lever clockwise while the detector is moving, these pieces "Shift" causing the machine to mechanically stay on 2nd ball until you disengage them. I believe it may have been connected to the 2nd solenoid also.?? This I know is true as we would do this at my old center, (also Serial 3000), while we would practice.

                  Selector 1 C2.jpgSelector 2 C2.jpg
                  Everything has to be Somewhere !!

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                  • #10
                    UPDATE: well i'll be a monkeys' uncle. after doing all the suggestions posted here, I have found the problem. The detector rod bracket that is on the deck lift shaft was bent. the detector rod would bind on the bent bracket every so often. I am not sure why that would cause the problem, or if it was one of the other suggested adjustments that fixed the machine. I have replaced that bracket with a brandy new one, and haven't had any calls as of yet.
                    <---- You are getting sleepy, very sleepy. When you wake-up you will want to bowl more. . . .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I fail to see how the adjusting block binding on the mounting bracket would cause the problem you had. I suspect the fix is only temporary or as you mention, one of the other repair suggestions was the cause.
                      good luck

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [QUOTE=If you have auto OOR it's possile that the machine is detecting an OOR pin but failing to lock out the rake. The rake sweeps the deck, machine goes to second ball awaitng the second ball to be thrown. This scenario closely aligns to your random respots.


                        If the only symptom you have is the machine is on second ball and no pins on the deck check the OOR function.[/QUOTE]

                        what if the binding was stopping the detector rod at the right height for the machine to think it had an oor when it didn't? machine might of acted like an auto oor problem (which I don't have installed, forgot to mention)

                        <---- You are getting sleepy, very sleepy. When you wake-up you will want to bowl more. . . .

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If the detector rod as you say was binding on the right spot for the machine to detect an OOR pin and you have the manual out of range lever. You would have to pull the OOR hook at the rear of the machine to clear the OOR. In which case you would see the rake sweeping the deck.
                          If you haven't the correct pin in the clutch lever and the machine doesn't come to a stop during the OOR cycle and the sweep hook does not get locked out you will see what your describing.
                          Which is why I suggested checking the OOR function to rule it out of the equation.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I agree with HP and don't think your bracket was the problem either. The machine would operate based on whatever it was detecting and it appears you were detecting a first ball standing pins scenario since you don't have automatic oor and didn't have to clear the oor.

                            I will stick by my original diagnosis that it was the moving deck / scissor latch out of adjustment. Since it only happened on occasion it was shifting sometimes and not shifting others indicative of a lever just reaching the point where it may or may not operate as designed. Keep in mind that when the scissors cam follower is blocked out then the moving deck will operate but it doesn't move during the first 180 degrees because it is on the high dwell of the cam.

                            The deck will come down at 90 to detect pins. The scissors are blocked out and the moving deck isn't moving because it's on the high cam dwell. The detector detects standing pins and the deck raises but the standing pins stay behind. The rake sweeps away the standing pins. The deck will come back down and the moving deck will shift and, as long as it is empty (and most of the time in a fast moving game it will be at this point) you won't see any issues. The deck will go to respot height and shift as though setting new pins then come back up waiting for second ball with and empty pin deck that you now have to set up pins on. The detector has no idea if the scissors or moving deck operated and it has no effect on the detector so everything goes on like normal.

                            If the moving deck is full when the shifting deck occurs you will get pins dumped onto the pin deck from respotting height and it will make a loud crash. The fact you didn't experience it just means the moving deck was empty when the moving deck shifted. If this problem were to continue odds are that at some point the moving deck would have been full and you would have gotten the crashing pins leading to to complaint 13 in your manual. You also won't get a double feed into the buckets because if the moving deck is full the pins will fall out when the moving deck shifts and you have an empty moving deck to receive the new set.

                            Mike: I didn't get the impression you were telling him to file anything I was just going by was the book gives as a solution which he appeared to be following.

                            I agree that the picture in the manual figure 122 is of the standing pins follower, however, they talk about the three lever assemblies and only show one picture so I think the picture was just for reference as to what to look for when the lobes get worn and since the problem would be the same on all three they only showed it once instead of showing all three lever assemblies.

                            The first lever assembly discussed (100272) would be the standing pins lever. You can tell this by the description of the failure which talks about the machine not stopping at 0 and always going to 90 degree overtravel. This is controlled by the C shaft and is blocked out by the standing pins assembly. If the standing pins assembly was not blocking out the standing pins cam follower then it would always follow the low dwell of the cam and thus result in the continuous overtravel described in subparagraph 1 of complaint 44 and it would never stop at 0. Since he was stopping at 0 after second ball we can exclude this as the problem.

                            The second lever assembly discussed (100267) and the one the poster had the question about would be the strike selector assembly. Again you can tell which one they are referring to because of the description in the complaint. Here it talks about the moving deck scissors latch which is controlled by the D shaft. If the strike selector wasn't blocking the strike cam follower then the follower would always follow the low dwell of the cam. This would cause the counter clockwise rotation of the D shaft resulting in the scissors always being blocked out and is the failure described in subparagraph 2 in complaint 44 referred to in the question.

                            The third lever (100263) is obviously the oor cam follower.

                            Thanks for posting back lawrence and letting us know what you found and did. It's always appreciated to know the outcome. Let us know if the problem returns.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              tonight will be the test because I have a 5 man league bowling in 11 and 12 (12 was the problem machine). once the league ends, i'll post what calls I got out of it.
                              <---- You are getting sleepy, very sleepy. When you wake-up you will want to bowl more. . . .

                              Comment

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