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moving deck sissor latch adjustment

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  • moving deck sissor latch adjustment

    I help out at a small old center when they need me. he was having issues with the deck dropping pins. I never actually saw it happen. but upon inspection we discovered that the deck lowering hook selector was extremely worn ( first pic. ) well he changed it out and now says moving deck cam is blocked out. how do you adjust the flag if there is no adjusting link like in second pic. ? these pinsetters are very old serial numbers in the low 1400,s
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  • #2
    If it use to work with that link, then I would suspect there is something else that is causing the problem. Usually adjustments only need to be made to account for wear in the parts. Look at the strike cam follower inside the detector and make sure it is setting fully into the low dwell of the timing cam. If you have a bad bearing or something on the D shaft that is preventing it from fully rotating, it could prevent the MD scissor latch from switching from one to the other. This would of course also cause problems with the deck lowering hook selector. Compare the D shaft rotation to that on another machine and make sure it is rotating the same amount on the two machines. If the strike cam follower is settling completely into the low dwell of the timing cam but the D shaft isn't rotating completely, this could be an indication one of the pins that connects ties it all together is possibly broken or worn allowing slippage.

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    • #3
      thanks for the response. are the holes in the d shaft in the center of the shaft? like could the shaft be out 180 degrees of rotation ?

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      • #4
        It's not uncommon for the spiral pin that locks the butterfly adjuster (2nd picture ) to the shaft to break.
        It may look good but is broken.

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        • #5
          The D shaft only rotates about 6 degrees so the the shaft isn't going to get 180 degrees out. If the shaft wasn't removed, there isn't any reason the shaft would even be out. Sometimes the roll pins can break and so the different levers may not rotate with the shaft. That's what I was referring to. Is the MDS latch moving at all? If not then is the D shaft rotating. If not is the strike cam follower dropping to the low dwell of the timing cam.

          What was the original complaint. What did you mean by dropping pins? Dropping them during respot, dropping them while setting new pins, or dropping them from respot height when setting new pins?

          You may not have solved the original problem. Maybe just found another.

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          • #6
            he said would drop pins when setting them originally but not from respoting height . im at my normal job today so I haven't been there but hes telling me that now that he changed the deck lowering hook selector that now the deck is blocked out and the deck wont shift to set new pins. is it possible for that deck lowering hook selector to not be the right one? like I said these pinsetters are very old like early 1400's for their serial numbers. I have 2 different styles here at my center in my parts stock. they look the same but the one curved part of it is thinner.

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            • #7
              exmech I was thinking that maybe when he changed the deck lowering hook selector that maybe he rotated the shaft 180 degrees but im looking at a few d shafts that I have here and they look like the holes are in the center of the shaft. he said roll pins are not broke.

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              • #8
                The pin that goes through the adjuster should be a spirol pin. Not a roll pin. I would suggest the link should be disconnected. Then try rotating the butterfly adjuster by hand. The pin will be broken inside the shaft with both ends visible in the adjuster.

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                • #9
                  I don't think he's 180 out. Even if the shaft itself got rotated 180, it's the components on the shaft that would affect the operation. I don't believe the MDS selector would line up with the fixed link if it was installed 180 out. The strike cam follower would definitely be obvious if it was out of position. The deck lowering hook selector has a protrusion that needs to be under the strike cam follower but it's free to rotate on the D shaft so I don't think installing it wrong would prevent the MDS latch from operating, However, if the MDS problem started after he changed that part out it would definitely be worth going back and checking his work again.

                  The original complaint doesn't match the current situation. When setting new pins, the pins cannot drop unless the moving deck is moving. So if the deck picks up standing pins, that is an indication that the MD is blocked out and the scissors are allowed to operate. Then, if the moving deck shifts to set new pins at which time it drops them somewhere along the path, that indicates the scissors are blocked out and the MD is functioning. So if these two conditions were initially being met then the MDS latch was apparently initially working. If the moving deck doesn't move then the pins stay resting on the rollers and away from the scissor deck holes so it is impossible for them to drop. So this is why I say your original problem is not related to your current problem. That doesn't mean we don't need to resolve the new problem just that I don't think it was your initial problem.

                  For the initial complaint, it could be a geneva problem, a jackshaft (bastard shaft) or a cable that's bad or numerous other things. In order for the deck to drop new pins, the moving deck has to have rolled all the way back. This can only happen at certain times when the moving deck cam follower is at the low dwell of the cam or if you maybe have a cable that is breaking and allowing the deck to be further rearward than it normally would be. Again, you are constrained by the geometry of the moving deck being positioned over the holes in the scissor deck. You can easily see if the cable is stretched by looking at the starting position of the moving deck at 0 degrees. It should be all the way forward at this point if the cables are good. Since the moving deck is urged rearward, longer cables would cause the deck to be further rearward at all times and it would be very noticeable at 0.

                  It could also be that something is sticking and when the deck starts coming back up, the moving deck make a violent jump rearward causing the pins to fall from slightly higher than normal. Again the geometry comes into play here so it would be nice to know exactly where they are dropping from.

                  I'd say get the MDS latch working first then come back to the original problem and see exactly where the pins are being dropped from. That can tell us a lot about where the problem might be. Use the steps outlined above to check the MDS problem. You don't really need to take anything apart. Look at the strike cam follower. If it goes to the low dwell when it is supposed to then that's not the issue. If the strike cam follower rotates then the D shaft must rotate. If it doesn't, then the pin attaching the strike cam follower to the D shaft is suspect. If the D shaft rotates then the MDS selector should rotate. If it doesn't then the pin attaching the selector to the shaft is suspect. If the MDS selector is rotating then the MDS latch certainly has to rotate. If not then check the latch for a broken or loose bolt or something out of place. However, if the latch is good then it is pretty much impossible for it to not rotate if the selector rotates.

                  So take another look at what was done when the deck lowering hook selector was replaced and then go through the above to see if you can isolate the issue with the MDS latch. If not post back with what you found and we can go from there. Then we will address the original complaint. I prefer not to speculate but respond based on observations.

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                  • #10
                    As a side note, a spiral pin is a roll pin. A spiral pin also known as a coil spring pin or a spiral roll pin, is in a sub category of spring pins. The slotted pins also sometimes referred to as C pins or slotted spring pins or slotted roll pins are also in the subcategory of spring pins. Both are manufactured using the "roll"ing process and are thus both commonly referred to as roll pins. The spiral pin was invented by the "Spirol" (note the "o") company so a Spirol pin would be a brand name just like sheetrock is a brand name for gypsum board. Since Spirol is a registered trademark, other companies wishing to manufacture the pins have to call theirs by another name so spiral, spiral roll pin, coil spring pin or the number of other names assigned to it are used. The Machinery's Handbook officially refers to these as Standard Spring Pins and further classify them as a coiled spring pin and a slotted spring pin. They avoid the roll pin and spiral pin designation all together. So yes I understand that Brunswick designates them separately as spiral pins and roll pins but to me they have both always been and will always be roll pins.

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                    • #11
                      exMech once again thanks for your input. and yes you are correct 2 separate problems. first problem was dropping pins when setting a new rack. I only got to see it do it once and it dropped them like it was on lowering hook. but that was from up front not at the pinsetter and couldn't duplicate it in the back. but did see that the deck lowering hook latch adjustment was off so at that time I readjusted that. seemed to work for a few days then said it did it again a few times but not as regular. said he sat on it for 2 full shifts and of course wouldn't do it. I went back and that's when we discovered that the deck lowering hook selector was extremely worn. at that time he changed it out, and then that's when the deck not shifting when setting new pins problem started. he does say that now if he unblocks the deck it sets pin real nice. I have him currently changing the deck lowering hook selector again thinking that it was maybe a wrong style, I have a few here at my center and noticed that the older ones are slightly different so I gave him an older style to try. if that don't work and the things you have said to check don't work then ill head back out there and see if I can see what's wrong. once again thanks for your help, like I've said these are some ancient machines I've been doing this for just over 20yrs. and a few different centers these things have stuff I've never seen, its really cool to see some of the first A pinsetters with some of the original parts. they have been converted to A2s but still with a lot of original parts.

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                      • #12
                        I suspect your deck lowering hook is the culprit in the original problem. If it stays on the short stroke the deck will still shift and the pins will drop from respotting height. This is a much more viable situation than the possibility of it dropping pins during the long stroke but at the wrong height. Not that the other is impossible but dropping pins from repotting height is a much more common problem.

                        Hopefully when he puts the new part (or older part in this case) back on it will resolve everything. It could be he just got something in wrong when reassembling the first time.

                        Our machines were A's and all original for the most part. There are some extra parts but once you know the pinsetter basics, I think they all are basically the same.

                        Let us know how things turn out.

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                        • #13
                          yes I agree basically the same. And will do thanks

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