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My machine is hungry for transformers

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Adsense Classic 1

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  • #16
    If you REALLY want to use the old style tombstones, (The florescent bulb holder ends), I would highly recommend purchasing a bulb that does NOT use the ballast. You still will have ballast failures that may & will take out the transformer. They also consume more power than those that do Not use the ballast. Here is the LED light conversion we did at the rear wall house. The fixtures were so beat up and failing. Had to reset camera settings after that as the lights were so much brighter. Lanes 1 & 2 Converted, 3 & 4 original.

    ALL Files Scanned with MALWAREBYTES PREMIUM Version 3.8.3.2965 and AVAST INTERNET SECURITY Version 19.7.2388
    If the pictures get scrambled, I apologize, program seems to be confused in the uploading.

    Pin Lt Convert 2C.jpgPin Lt Convert 3C.jpgPin Lt Convert 4C.jpgPin Lt Convert 5C.jpgPin Lt Convert 6C.jpgPin Lt Convert 7C.jpgPin Lt Convert 8C.jpgPin Lt Convert 9C.jpgPin Lt Convert 10C.jpgPin Lt Convert 11C.jpgPin Lt Convert 12C.jpgPin Lt Convert 13C.jpgPin Lt Convert 14C.jpg image_10185.jpg

    Here is the original way the wires were, getting all cut up and shorted out. And the rework. You can easily make your own bracket or purchase them.

    Wire Bracket 4C.jpgWire Bracket 5C.jpgWire Bracket 6C.jpgWire Bracket 7C.jpgWire Bracket 2C.jpgWire Bracket 3C.jpg
    Everything has to be Somewhere !!

    Comment


    • #17
      "And back to the LED floodlamp deck light setup for a sec -- while the setup looks neat, I'm not sure it would work in my setting."

      I think I've seen those. You should be able to fab up and attach some sort of bracket to mount whatever type of LED you choose if you intend to go that route.
      Everything has to be Somewhere !!

      Comment


      • #18
        This seems to have turned into another LED conversion discussion which is OK but where do you stand with the original problem. Have you really confirmed that the light is actually the problem?

        In your first post you said you lost H5 on the first transformer. I assume you get no continuity to any of the other winding leads on the transformer primary. If the H5 winding is the issue then it could be the pit light as discussed OR it could also be the contactor coil depending on if you are using the new 2 pole contactor or the original 3 pole contactor. When the 2 pole contactor is installed H5 is re-routed to power the coil on the contactor as well as the pit light whereas with the 3 pole contactor it only supplies the pin light.

        1) Which motor contactor do you have?

        A rectifier won't take out H5 as none of the rectifier current flows throw that part of the transformer. Likewise a cycle solenoid won't take out the transformer at all as it get's it power directly from the circuit breaker.

        The main concern is why you didn't take out a fuse before you took out a transformer ... twice. If the machine has had some electrical work done on it at some point, for example the motor contactor upgraded to the 2 pole, then it's possible the fuse has accidentally been bypassed. The fuse should go long before the transformer. The simplest way to test this is to take the 1 amp fuse out and see if the machine shuts down. If it doesn't, it's been bypassed. It's usually accidental that this happens but I've helped many people with this problem because the machine will run fine but the fuse won't protect anything and so they lost components rather than fuses. You should also be using a 1 amp slow blow fuse so verify you have the correct fuse..

        In post #3 you said that you unplugged the pin light and fired it up with a new transformer. You then said the machine started up and the cycle solenoid fired. As to be expected as it has little to do with the transformer except the control signal to the tdm.

        However, you then said that the motor does nothing. So, the big question is why did the motor do nothing? If you have a bad contactor and it is the two pole version, I think you should be looking here instead based on what you said in that post.

        Then you said you shut the machine back off and started walking up front. You didn't say whether you plugged the pin light back in at this point or not. However, you did say that as you were walking up front you smelled something burning and this apparently happened with the machine off. So why are you burning a transformer with the machine off?

        With either 2 or 3 pole contactors, H5 is switched off BEFORE it goes into any devices. So if the machine was off like you said it was then IF it's wired correctly the H5 coil cannot be the coil burning. At this point you need to check the second transformer and see what it's status is. Is it truly burnt as well or did you catch it in time? If it's burnt, which coil burned?

        I don't advocate troubleshooting by parts exchange. As you found out, it's a good way to destroy perfectly good new parts. I wouldn't power the machine back on until you isolate the problem.

        We probably need an update on where you stand troubleshooting this. If you still had problems with the pin light disconnected then you are probably looking in the wrong place but we don't know what you have done since you smelled smoke from the second transformer.

        Comment


        • #19
          For your reference, transformer primary resistances are:

          H1 - H2 ... 3.5 ohms
          H3 - H4 ... 3.5 ohms
          H3 - H5 ... 4.2 ohms

          Any lead to the transformer case should be infinite ohms.

          With the transformer leads all disconnected, H1 and H2 should have infinite ohms to H3, H4 and H5.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by exMech View Post
            This seems to have turned into another LED conversion discussion which is OK but where do you stand with the original problem. Have you really confirmed that the light is actually the problem?
            Haven't had a chance to tear into it further. Still waiting on transformers. Was technically off today, but went in for a delivery and to talk with the roving arcade tech.

            If it helps any, from what I gather, the last one went south when the (fluorescent) black lights were being used. That may have been the case when the first one failed, but I honestly don't know offhand.

            In your first post you said you lost H5 on the first transformer.
            And the second as well.

            I assume you get no continuity to any of the other winding leads on the transformer primary.
            As stated earlier, H1 has continuity with H2. H3 can see H4. Neither H3 nor H4 can see H5.

            If the H5 winding is the issue then it could be the pit light as discussed OR it could also be the contactor coil depending on if you are using the new 2 pole contactor or the original 3 pole contactor. When the 2 pole contactor is installed H5 is re-routed to power the coil on the contactor as well as the pit light whereas with the 3 pole contactor it only supplies the pin light.

            1) Which motor contactor do you have?
            On that particular lane, Allen-Bradley.

            A rectifier won't take out H5 as none of the rectifier current flows throw that part of the transformer. Likewise a cycle solenoid won't take out the transformer at all as it gets its power directly from the circuit breaker.

            The main concern is why you didn't take out a fuse before you took out a transformer ... twice. If the machine has had some electrical work done on it at some point, for example the motor contactor upgraded to the 2 pole, then it's possible the fuse has accidentally been bypassed. The fuse should go long before the transformer. The simplest way to test this is to take the 1 amp fuse out and see if the machine shuts down. If it doesn't, it's been bypassed. It's usually accidental that this happens but I've helped many people with this problem because the machine will run fine but the fuse won't protect anything and so they lost components rather than fuses. You should also be using a 1 amp slow blow fuse so verify you have the correct fuse..

            In post #3 you said that you unplugged the pin light and fired it up with a new transformer. You then said the machine started up and the cycle solenoid fired. As to be expected as it has little to do with the transformer except the control signal to the tdm.

            However, you then said that the motor does nothing. So, the big question is why did the motor do nothing? If you have a bad contactor and it is the two pole version, I think you should be looking here instead based on what you said in that post.
            Now we're cooking with Crisco here. As stated above, it's an older Allen-Bradley, which I think is a 3-pole, with a thermal overload. I do have a two-pole Deltrol I can throw in; the motor itself has a thermal overload, so losing that on the contactor won't be a problem. And there was NO electrical work done on it prior.

            Then you said you shut the machine back off and started walking up front. You didn't say whether you plugged the pin light back in at this point or not.
            You're right; I did neglect to say that. I had not plugged the deck light back in.

            However, you did say that as you were walking up front you smelled something burning and this apparently happened with the machine off. So why are you burning a transformer with the machine off?
            That, my friend, is the 64,000 volt question. I'm wondering if it's collateral damage from when the thing failed.

            With either 2 or 3 pole contactors, H5 is switched off BEFORE it goes into any devices. So if the machine was off like you said it was then IF it's wired correctly the H5 coil cannot be the coil burning. At this point you need to check the second transformer and see what its status is. Is it truly burnt as well or did you catch it in time? If it's burnt, which coil burned?
            As stated earlier, H5 is incommunicado with H3 and H4. I can unhook everything and check again.

            We probably need an update on where you stand troubleshooting this. If you still had problems with the pin light disconnected then you are probably looking in the wrong place but we don't know what you have done since you smelled smoke from the second transformer.
            Not a whole lot; trying to figure out where to look next while waiting for the transformers to ship. I'll be honest; I consider my electrical troubleshooting skills to be lacking. You're looking at someone who tried to learn to fix radios in the Marine Corps and failed. Mind you, we had extremely detailed documentation on where the power went, where the audio signals went, and so on. I could use that to do writeups on how they worked; the instructors were impressed. Yet I failed the course.

            It sure would be nice if I had that kind of documentation available for the electrical box. The Brunswick video is helpful, to be sure, but I wouldn't mind seeing something that spelled out the electricity path through the box. For example, power from the breaker comes in at H1 and H4. I should get the same voltage (more or less) at H2 and H3, aye?

            For your reference, transformer primary resistances are:

            H1 - H2 ... 3.5 ohms
            H3 - H4 ... 3.5 ohms
            H3 - H5 ... 4.2 ohms

            Any lead to the transformer case should be infinite ohms.
            I'm reading 5 or 6 ohms, but the video says "under 10 ohms".

            With the transformer leads all disconnected, H1 and H2 should have infinite ohms to H3, H4 and H5.
            Yeah, funny thing, that... the video agrees with you, but the wiring diagram says H1, H2 and H3 are on the same winding. H4 and H5 are not. (Go fig.) I trust I can ignore that part of the diagram, then.

            When I take a gander at yon wee beastie tomorrow, I'll be sure and throw a meter across the contactor coil and see if it reveals anything out of the ordinary.

            Comment


            • #21
              Been running ragged, but managed to sit down for a few minutes, got confused, and ended up breaking another lane. Let me explain.

              Step one: unhook H1 - H4 from the terminal strip. Recheck connectivity and ohm settings. H1 - H2, a little over 5 ohms. H3 - H4, about 4.5ish, I think it was. H3 - H5, nothing.

              Step two: verify the 1A fuse is, in fact, 1A. Pull the fuse... and it's blown. Funny, it wasn't like that before... FINE. Read the end cap, have the minion read the end cap. Well, it *was* 1A.

              Step three: check the contactor coil. Okay, it's easy enough on a Deltrol, but how the devil to do this on an Allen-Bradley?

              I check the video, find the wire coming out of the back. I look on the front, find the two little terminal wings. I get continuity on the left wing, but nothing on the right. The video says to use the one on the right, so... bad coil, right? Okay, we've got plenty of other machines with this contactor. I pick one three lanes down, its cover is off, and it's in the middle of my league block. We're supposed to unhook that wire from the front of the coil, so I grab my trusty screwdriver, go to take the screw out, and...

              CRACK

              Broke a perfectly good lane. I am PISSED.

              I take a break, run a package down to the UPS store, get some food, come back, grab the one spare contactor, and start swapping the thing out. Had some trouble finding some of the wires to move over, but the machine is back up. Take the broken contactor, put a meter on it between the wire and where the terminal used to be on the front of the coil. That one isn't getting readings either, yet it was working.

              I don't want to run the risk of breaking another one, but I also need to make sure I'm doing this right. Where do you all check contactor coils on an Allen-Bradley?

              Comment


              • #22
                If memory serves me correctly, use the screw at the RED Arrow, (for High Voltage), and there should be a wire coming from the back of the coil, (BLUE Arrow). You should see continuity between the two, not sure of the ohm value.

                ALL Files Scanned with MALWAREBYTES PREMIUM Version 3.8.3.2965 and AVAST INTERNET SECURITY Version 19.7.2388

                Contactor Wiring 2.jpgContactor Wiring.jpg
                Everything has to be Somewhere !!

                Comment


                • #23
                  That was my understanding -- thank you for confirming. I've gone and purchased an analog meter so as to eliminate any confusion as to what I'm seeing. I'll take another gander tomorrow. As to ohm value, the video wasn't too specific, but mentioned 100-300 ohms depending on which relay was being used.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Finally tore into the light bar today, and while the ballast itself was intact, and some of the wire nut connections looked a wee bit sketchy, I did manage to confirm that the ballast is toast. I'm getting continuity between the white power wire and the two blue wires... and that shouldn't be happening. It's been swapped for a T8 ballast/bulb, and if fscking Brunswick ever decides to ship the fscking transformers I ordered, I can drop one in and hopefully this sordid affair will at last be over. I'm also reasonably certain that the motor contactor coils are good.

                    Earlier, I had mentioned having plugged in the machine, turning it on, trying to cycle it, and shutting it back off, leaving the power plugged in. By "shutting it off", I mean the breaker was on; the mechanics switch was on; but the other switch at the end of the wire channel (I call it the "mechanic's override") was off. In other words, the way a machine would normally be, with the exception of the deck light being unplugged. Yet there was a burning smell coming from the transformer. How, it was asked, could this be happening?

                    A day or two ago, I was talking with my area mechanic. He mentioned something that seems obvious now, but I had no idea this was the case. I went digging earlier, and even found a post on here earlier today (but of course I can't find it now) that says the same thing. The coils on the high voltage side always have power going through them; the mechanic's switch goes through the low voltage side. Well, hey -- I learned something.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      While your area mechanic is partially correct in that H1-H4 have a current running through them all the time, as I explained above, H5 does not. Refer the picture below. With the Allen Bradley 3 pole contactor, H5 feeds the pin light only. (You can ignore the dotted lines as they are for the 2 pole contactor conversion) Power to the pin light is controlled by contacts 7 and 8 on the contactor (RLY 3) indicated by the red arrow and circle. So with the mechanics switch off, the msr (RLY 2) is off. Green arrow in pic. With the msr off, no power is applied to the contactor coil. With no power to the contactor coil, contacts 7 and 8 are open and so the pin light is off. Therefore with the machine shut off like you explained, the pin light is drawing no power so there is no current through the H5 coil of the transformer which is the coil you said was burning with the machine off. So if you are burning coil H5 with the machine off, then you need to look for a short to ground.

                      Furthermore, the rectifier also has it's power shut off when the contactor is shut off when contacts 1 and 3 and also 2 and 4 open. Therefore, unless you have a short to ground somewhere, the only current flowing through the transformer high side coils when the machine is off is that current allowed by the coils themselves. Since you put a new transformer in and burnt it up when the machine was off then you either had 2 bad transformers or you have a short to ground. Since you had the pin light unplugged when you burnt up the second transformer, then you have a problem in the electrical box and not the ballast. (Not saying the light ballast wasn't also a problem.)

                      Personally, I would not put a new transformer in at this point and power it up based simply on the fact that you burnt the second transformer with the pin light unplugged. With the pin light unplugged, the ballast wasn't even in the picture yet you still burnt out a transformer. Whether the burning happened before you powered the machine down or after makes no difference as you said you had the pin light disconnected the entire time. Based on what you have said in your posts above, I'm not convinced you have found and resolved the problem but I can only base that on what you have said.

                      With the new pin light plugged in, (MACHINE UNPLUGGED) take a resistance reading from TS1-F to ground and one from TS1-G to ground. You should get infinite ohms. Then take a reading from the motor contactor contact 7 to ground and contact 8 to ground. Again you should get infinite resistance. This should tell you if you have a short to ground in the light circuit.

                      Then take a reading from TS1-E to ground and a reading from TS1-H to ground. Again you should get infinite ohms. If you do then you should feel confident you don't have a short to ground.

                      You also need to figure out why your fuse didn't blow before the transformer went out.

                      With the confusion over the identification of the transformer leads you may want to do the following.

                      Check resistance from:
                      H1 to H2, H1 to H3, H1 to H4, H1 to H5.
                      H2 to H3, H2 to H4, H2 to H5
                      H3 to H4, H3 to H5
                      H4 to H5

                      If the leads are mis-identified and H1, H2 and H3 are on the same coil as you mentioned above then you wouldn't get any reading from H3, H4 to H5. So it may be beneficial to take a couple minutes to make sure you have the wires identified correctly.
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by exMech View Post
                        While your area mechanic is partially correct in that H1-H4 have a current running through them all the time, as I explained above, H5 does not.
                        Correct.

                        Refer the picture below. With the Allen Bradley 3 pole contactor, H5 feeds the pin light only. (You can ignore the dotted lines as they are for the 2 pole contactor conversion)
                        These are converted A2s; while the Allen-Bradleys we do still have are indeed 3-pole, the 2-pole conversion has been done. (When this was, I have no idea; definitely before my time.) One pole is unused. H5 does not go to the contactor, but rather the motor start relay.

                        Since you had the pin light unplugged when you burnt up the second transformer, then you have a problem in the electrical box and not the ballast. (Not saying the light ballast wasn't also a problem.)
                        Personally, I would not put a new transformer in at this point and power it up based simply on the fact that you burnt the second transformer with the pin light unplugged.
                        The second transformer, as stated above, failed with the deck light plugged in and switched over to black light. I imagine this was the case with the first transformer as well. I am of the opinion that the coil was damaged by the shorted ballast, and even with the deck light unplugged, continued to cook as the damage was already done. Does that sound feasible to you?

                        With the new pin light plugged in, (MACHINE UNPLUGGED) take a resistance reading from TS1-F to ground and one from TS1-G to ground. You should get infinite ohms. Then take a reading from the motor contactor contact 7 to ground and contact 8 to ground. Again you should get infinite resistance. This should tell you if you have a short to ground in the light circuit.

                        Then take a reading from TS1-E to ground and a reading from TS1-H to ground. Again you should get infinite ohms. If you do then you should feel confident you don't have a short to ground.
                        I wasn't sure whether I was supposed to wait for the new transformer or not, and the second one is completely disconnected from TS1, but I went ahead and measured from E, F, G and H to ground, and also from the contact on the MSR that completes the circuit with H5 to ground. Did this with the deck light plugged in and machine unplugged. No continuity whatsoever.

                        You also need to figure out why your fuse didn't blow before the transformer went out.
                        That's another good question. Maybe the current flow was right on the ragged edge of 1A.

                        If the leads are mis-identified and H1, H2 and H3 are on the same coil as you mentioned above then you wouldn't get any reading from H3, H4 to H5. So it may be beneficial to take a couple minutes to make sure you have the wires identified correctly.
                        The wires were labeled correctly; it's my factory wiring diagram that is wonky. I'll snap a pic and put it up in a bit. Looks a bit different from the one you posted.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Here's the transformer part.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            ...and I just realized that picture I posted is on the very next page from the same manual you posted yours from. Oopsie.

                            Dunno where it came from, but the one I've been using is a larger version of that, laminated and rolled up.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Here is what I hope to be the final update.

                              Finally got the transformers in. Checked one on the bench, all was good. No bad ring terminals this time. Installed it (much more difficult when one is by oneself). Having replaced the T12 ballast with the T8 and installed a bulb, I doublechecked continuity between the ground lug and terminals E/F/G/H and the motor start relay terminal feeding the deck light. All passed. Powered up the machine with the motor unplugged, put the clamp meter over H5, current draw looks good on both white and black light. The black light itself, however, did not -- seems it isn't putting out enough light to illuminate the back row. So, it was decided to run it on white light until I could get a replacement T12 ballast. No problem right?

                              The nightly summary said the machine ran for five minutes. The minion called and said something was burning. After cursing a blue streak, I asked him what was burning. He gave a vague description of where it was at, so he texted a picture...

                              ...of the selenium rectifier. That's the problem? Great. That I can deal with. Let's hope he's right, I'm thinking to myself.

                              I get in this morning, unhook the wires from the high voltage side, put a meter on them... and everything passes. The transformer was intact. I decide to take no chances, and swap out not only the rectifier, but the contactor as well. During that process, I noticed that one wire I had resoldered to the rectifier wasn't really soldered on that well; not only that, when I pulled the contactor, the coil wire hanging down off the back... snapped off. That might explain a few things about how it was behaving.

                              When I left, I had the minion keeping a close eye on it just in case it decided to misbehave again. So far, so good. Tomorrow I switch the T8 ballast back out and bolt in the T12 ballast, then reinstall the old bulb.


                              Thank you, everyone.

                              Comment

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