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The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsetters

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  • #16
    Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

    The parts used on Japanese machines are not the same as their American counterparts. The frames are different. Motor mounts are different. Pit cushions are different. These are not American parts sent to Japan to be assembled in Japan. Even the color of the paint is different...Japanese machines have this purple hue to their paint.

    It is an interesting theory though Jim...I wonder if some of it is the way things were done.
    TSM & TSM Training Development
    Main Event Entertainment
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    • #17
      Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

      I was told buy a "B" salesman who work for them since 48' that the JAP goverment required so many parts to be assembled in country and that the electrical componets had to be JAP made.

      The first batch of parts for assembly were sent from here to there until the assembly plant there got up and running. Kind of like what OTIS did until "B" got their own plant up to spec. Otis had the ability to manufacture large componets accurately by jig. Kind of like Boeing and their abilities to manufacture different assemblies world wide and assemble them perfectly, it's all in the jigs.

      Brunswick would not give up their casting expertise(Mercury Marine). That's why all the weird serial numbers on JAP machines, they were all American cast and stamped here. The final machining was done there after the initial parts inventory was exhasted, but they were all cast here in the USA.


      Jim Long

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      • #18
        Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

        The electrical part sure makes sense.

        The machining of the gear box sounds very interesting. Any idea when they started to build machines over there? If the 69XXX machines were near the first...would that fall in line with the 69XXX that were built here? That would put it around August of 61. That would seem too early for the Japanese boom.

        What do you think?
        TSM & TSM Training Development
        Main Event Entertainment
        480-620-6758 for help or information

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        • #19
          Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

          Well in the sixties the economy was tanking and "B" was sitting on a butt load of inventory, I mean alot of it. They got the OK to do the import of main assemblies with the use of JAP manufactured subassemblies(rake,deck shafts and the like).

          From what I understand the machines we had were less than 5 years old when we got them in the early 70's. This would have made their manufacture date around 68-69. I was surprised at this because of the other 69,XXX machines were put out like you said, in the early 60's.

          This discrepency is the real twist, everyone(Brunswick,BCO,BRC) told me to use the 90,XXX serial number parts list for my machines, WRONG!!!!!!.........lol

          My clutch trigger/reset linkages were half cast iron and half stamped crap. The parts list for 90,XXXX machines shows almost all stamped componets. My actuator levers were all stamped and riveted garbage. Of course they all cracked or just fell apart because someone before me was replacing the rubber stop bumper with a solid 1/2 bolt. Everytime the machine triggered the actuator lever slammed down on the solid bolt head and just took a toll on them.

          Even with JAP electrical boxes, I had American made transformers and all the low voltage cannon plugs were American. The pinsetter motors were Toshiba(Great Motors) but the accelerator and power lift motors were GE and Century with American made parts in the control boxes. Hand drier motors were American made, the group of eight manager connection boxes were all American made and assemblied here.

          My pinsetters were a kind of brown/gray color, but the accelerators, under grounds and powerlifts were the standard grey color for "B".

          My power lift hoods were the first production and were flimsy light weight fiberglass without the angle iron stiffeners on the bottom, but the ball racks themselves were good and strong. The foul lights(Astroline) were real low serial numbers, one board I had was serial number 049. Others were in the 100's, the frames for the foul lights were painted factory grey(American).

          My deckshafts and rake shafts were the cheap/thin JAP steel and I had to slot my rake shafts to get the repair kits to fit before "B" came out with the metric sized repair kits. I finally had a machine shop make me 50 kits to size and spent 2 summers pulling rake shafts and cutting them at the break point to insert the repair kits I had made. Never had another problem with them.


          The deck shafts, thats was a whole other bag of worms. We could count on about 2 deck shafts a year biting the dust. They would break right at the "C" levers everytime. Most I straighten out and reinforce with 1/4 steel plates welded to the "C" levers and cut to shape. But later on the main tube shaft would get spider cracks running all over the area where the "C" levers were attached. I had some steel pipe cut to 3 or 4 inch lengthens and split in half it was almost a perfect fit to the outside of the deck shaft dimension. Press them on around the deck shaft after heating them up with a torch in a 20 ton press and weld 'em up together. Six halves per deck shaft and that kept them going. All 2:1's were skotch yokes and they were painted factory "B" grey along with moving deck/scissor cams and rake lift cams factory "B" grey.


          Other JAP machines that I've work on mostly were 90,XXX configured but had the old style moving decks, gear boxes, and turret frames. All had the cast deck post and the pin elevators were all the cheap stamped sheet metal garbage. I had to replace everyone one I had because of the spider cracks in them.

          The pit cushions were the single piece 1/4" stamped steel that would crack along the top bend, more welding there. The front of the cushion was molded rubber that the lane oil would attack and dissolve onto the pins and balls and of course the bowlers hands.

          Rake boards were the three piece metal junk until I bought all new fiberglass ones. Shaker boards were wood with triangle plates bolted to them(old style). Had to replace all of them also because they blew out at the impact point.

          Cross conveyor snubbers were stationary type, Turret clutches were new style, Gear box clutches were new style and painted factory grey(American). All belts were Gates made, but cross conveyor drive was "V Belt" not round. Turret drive was not gear take off but old style with ten thousand bends.

          Even the cycle solenoid support plate that bolted directly to the gear box was American grey, but the original cycle solenoids were JAP made along with using JAP power cord with the red ground wire like the motors had.

          Lift rods and return tracks were all painted factory "B" grey along with the "Y" gates.

          The real kicker was that the electrical box had metric screws holding the covers on. The black out switches and CC switches used metric mounting bolts.

          And every serial number lined up for the gearbox, turret frame and CC support all with a "J" hand stamped in front of them.

          J 69,XXX with the "J" slightly off like it was added later. The name plate on the CC support had the same look with the "J" added later.



          Jim Long

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          • #20
            Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

            Sure sounds just like any other Japanese machine I have ever seen...except for the cast reset linkage parts. All of mine have always been stamped.

            All Japanese gear boxes are the 90000 series gear box when looking up parts. If you had cast parts, it made no difference. Spring posts, shafts, sight glass, oilite bearings, 4:1 spur gear (and others) were all 90000 series parts. I have yet to see a Japanese gear box that didn't fit this setup. There may be some out there...but I haven't seen them. If anybody has any pics...I would be interested in them.

            I am curious as to how the J is added on the cross conveyor plate as the plate clearly states that the machine was manufactured in Japan.
            TSM & TSM Training Development
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            480-620-6758 for help or information

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            • #21
              Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

              Steve, I'll look at the serial numbers tomorrow for you and answer the other questions along with them.

              The 2nd bowling center I work for has 10 Japanese pinsetters and 14 American pinsetters. The place was built roughly 1968 with the same pinsetters since. I'll get the serial numbers on them also. I think most are around J 75,000 but i'll double check. From what I have heard the original owner who built the place found 10 Jap. A-2's for sale and bought them for over here.
              The older the part, the STRONGER it is.

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              • #22
                Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                Thanks for the help... [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]
                TSM & TSM Training Development
                Main Event Entertainment
                480-620-6758 for help or information

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                • #23
                  Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                  Originally posted by Steve Stafford (JBEES)
                  The parts used on Japanese machines are not the same as their American counterparts. The frames are different. Motor mounts are different. Pit cushions are different. These are not American parts sent to Japan to be assembled in Japan. Even the color of the paint is different...Japanese machines have this purple hue to their paint.

                  It is an interesting theory though Jim...I wonder if some of it is the way things were done.
                  Steve:

                  It's only stories I've heard, but hasn't it been the general experience that Jap parts (deck lift shafts especially) have had a higher rate of cracking failures than american machines??

                  That in itself would contradict the thought of made here, assembled there, as parts made in the same factory, from the same steel, should have similar failure rates

                  Kevin
                  Find it http://www.bowltech.com/content/btub...141#Post266141

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                    My name plates said "MADE IN USA". And the "J" was not in perfect line with the numbers. Neither was the gearbox serial number, the "J" was offset a little like it was added later?

                    I had the heavy cast decks and gearbox's, and two different colors of paint all over. The deck shafts and rake shafts SUCKED. Even the 50 hertz A-2 motor pulleys were painted factory "B" gray.

                    Everyone that looked at them said they were strange ducks. We bought them straight from the JAP center that was going to close because the building was falling down around them.

                    They didn't have the vibration dampeners that "B" later put on the shaker shafts in later JAP production machines. This is why the building was condemned, if the shakers got in time the building would start to vibrate. The JAP building methods were substandard and the machines were reported to just tear the buildings main supports and structure apart.

                    The motor mounts were different then standard because the Toshiba motor frames didn't match American standards for mounting. Later "B" offered a motor adapter kit to mount a new American style motor to the Toshiba style mount. I had spare motors that weren't Toshiba compatible. I just used a flat steel plate laid out to match the mount to the spare motor and welded studs through plate to match the spare motor. Then I used bolts going down through the plate to the original motor mount to use the adjustment slots. Cost was nill compared to the adapters that "B" was pushing. After I repaired the Toshiba motor I would put it back on the machine it came off off. The spare motor with my adapter plate would go back into inventory waiting for the next swap out.

                    No way did my machines match 90,XXX production machines. They were all over the place........



                    Jim Long

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                    • #25
                      Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                      Ok steve the serial numbers on gearbox and cross conveyor range from 83,798 to 83,811. All have A-2 cycle solenoid mounting plates and all have scotch yokes. My old bowling center had 1 machine around 83,2xx with a converted mounting plate and deck lowering link.
                      The jap a-2's i have at the other center range from J 63539 to J 70xxx.
                      The older the part, the STRONGER it is.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                        Sure would be neat to see some pics of those machines Jim...where is/was the center? Is it still around?

                        Nirvana04...thanks for the input. I will put that info into a file I have started on serial numbers. Very helpful. The 63539 machine would have been made in April of 61 if Jim is correct...seems a bit soon for the Japanese machine. More research is needed.

                        It is great to have the knowledge and experience of guys like Jim here to help us try and figure this out. Jim...your help to this point has been greatly appreciated. Don't confuse some of the comments made with sarcasim...we are just throwing questions out there to see what happens with them. Keep up the good work...
                        TSM & TSM Training Development
                        Main Event Entertainment
                        480-620-6758 for help or information

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                        • #27
                          Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett



                          Well Steve the center is gone and the machines are in Mississippi or Alabama somewhere. I dont have any pictures, all the pictures that were ever taken were for insurance purposes and were just general views anyways.


                          If I can get in contact with Dave Robb, the "B" salesman I was talking about earlier I think he had some pictures of the install. He was real proud of the equipment going in because Colonial was an AMF equipted house originally.

                          After 23 years of babying them the boss sold out to Gonzaga University and they tore the place down and sold the equipment. But I'm sure they are somewhere, working their hearts out for someone.

                          It's kind of like loosing your kids...........

                          I did go through the online parts manual to refesh my memory and notice that "B" has removed a lot of the serial number statements from the pages. They must have gave up on them after realizing that the JAP machines were a serial number mess.

                          Also, I heard that not all parts/assemblies were used in order because the JAP goverment kept impounding the shipments for import duties. They have always protected their industries this way.

                          Brunswick eventually had eat a lot of the cost because the bottom fell out the bowling business in Japan in the 70's. They were draging machines back to the states left and right. BRC was building new centers here and aquired a bunch of machines that sat in storage for years. What a mistake that was, it took every part "B" had to get them running again.



                          Jim Long

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                          • #28
                            Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                            Just FYI - In 1953, The Brunswick Automatic Pinsetter Prototype was assembled by Huck and Company.
                            In 1956, Roselle Lanes in Roselle, N.J. recieved the first 16 production automatic pinsetters.

                            Also as far as Jet Backs go, the facts are sometimes forgotten. The "JET BACK" is not a manufactured version. The 1965 Jet Back was merely a conversion package originally designed to slow the A-2 to a midpoint between the "A" and "A-2" and to slow the ball return with a booster.

                            Now, of course we find "A's" converted to Jet Backs.
                            Works for me!
                            "Efficiency is, doing better what is already being done!"
                            Pinsetter Technical Services 214-505-7663

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                            • #29
                              Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                              I was told that the Jet-Back was an option to upgrade the A toward the A-2 without the speed and some of the expense involved in a full blown A-2 conversion. I can't see taking out the electronics in the A-2 electrical box to create a cable triggering machine without a time delay module. Removing an accelerator to install a bosster and track assembly. Most Jet-Backs I have seen run the A tracks to the power lift. Easier to tie into using the booster setup and you don't need to replace all of that track going up front if it was already there for the original A machine.

                              I could be wrong though...

                              Your thoughts?
                              TSM & TSM Training Development
                              Main Event Entertainment
                              480-620-6758 for help or information

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                              • #30
                                Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                                Steve:
                                Your not the one thats mistaken.The Jet-back was indeed, a less costly upgrade for the A instead of going full boat to the A/2 upgrade.
                                Roscoe
                                rfm

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