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The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsetters

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  • #46
    Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

    [quote=KINGPIN ENTERPRISE]Ewen,
    Yes! The "A-2" version (both the 1960 conversion and the factory model) were BEFORE the 1965 Jet Back conversion package was conceived. It was originaly designed to slow the A-2 but was so popular, mechanics used it to speed up the A's without going all the way to the A-2 speed.


    KINGPIN,
    Since I was not working on brunswick equipment when the Jetback conversion was introduced, I have several more questions, as I was also under the impression that the jetback was a conversion for the A .
    You have stated that the Jetback was actually intended as a conversion for the Factory A-2 to slow it down. I am wondering just what components were included in the jetback conversion for the Factory A2 . Also, if the jetback was a conversion for the factory A2 , then there should be some jetback pinsetters someplace with a scotch yoke .Correct ?
    Lastly, can you post any early documents from brunswick that contains the information that supports your claim that the Jetback was originally intended to slow down the Factory a2.
    If you could, it would clear up much confusion on this subject.
    Thanks in advance,
    Mark
    There is light at the end of the tunnel - just be sure it is not a train.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

      There were a lot of "Different" JetBack packages, most were custom designed to fit the center needs. To speed up "A's" or slow down A-2's that were factory lowering linked.


      JetBack was primarly a field conversion, and from what I understand some "A's" were installed already JetBacked from the factory?????????


      And here is a cool overload: http://www.thermtrol.com/ThermtrolPDF/Self-Hold7AM.pdf



      Jim Long

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      • #48
        Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

        I've seen some Jetbacks with Accelerators, there was a tournament on ESPN Classic recently I caught one of the machines coming down before the camera panned away it said jetbackon the shield. They still had some of the old maganese rakeboards, Shh, I still have some of those myself. While im at it Many years ago ESPN did a special on the centennial of the ABC, In there footage There was a clip of a VERY VERY Early Brunswick Machine, This could have been one of these Prototype machines, But It had a rake that was simular to AMF Sweep Bars instead of the solid boards you see today. Anyone else Catch this? I remember the Deck coming down and it said Brunswick in cursive on the shield in this clip as well.

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        • #49
          Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

          Sorry to revive an old, but good topic. The center I'm working at now has machines with 74,000-85,000 numbered turret frames,x-conveyor plates, and decks, but mostly 54,000 numbered GB's and detectors. They also have applied Brunswick Automatic Pinsetter with A2 Conversion tags on the rear shields. None of these have scotch yokes, and I took a look at my 1971 Brunswick Green Parts Catalog and it seems to define some lowering link/scotch yoke parts in the 2:1 area as before or after 90,000. From my observations it looks as though 80,000-90,000 were A2 conversions, while 90,000 and up were Factory versions. Just wanted to add this bit of info.

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          • #50
            Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

            the center i just left has 12 lanes of converted a2s with jap electrical, not sure about the s/n's, ill check when i get the chance.
            that pit isnt loud, its running with authority!

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            • #51
              Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

              this thread is def explaining why it says in the parts
              catalog "for model A", "for converted A-2", "A-2 with scotch yoke", and <u>"A-2 WITHOUT scotch yoke"</u>. keep it coming, you got me interested...

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              • #52
                Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                Originally posted by ewen
                I was also under the impression that the jetback was a conversion for the A
                Jetbacks were a conversion of the model "A" pinsetters. The conversion kept a lot of "A" parts, and added a few more, like ball boosters. Also Jetback gearbox speed was increased. Also, the pit cushion linkage was changed out to replace the model A "hockey stick." A "shotgun" was added to improve triggering. A Jetback conversion resembled an A-2.

                Factory A-2s came equipped with a scotch yoke; while field conversions left the lowering links in place. Also, the scissor/moving deck cam was changed to give more stability to the pins when it spotted a full set to the lane. On some imported (to the US) models, the motor pulley had a larger motor to jackshaft pulley, which made the back-ends run faster. This was done to speed up the ball return to the bowler, and get the pit conveyor to run faster; however, it had major drawbacks. Parts breakage increased from the increased speed, such as pit conveyor mounts and gearbox linkage.

                Most centers are slowing down the pinsetters, replacing the current motor pulley to the old model "A" pulley. It saves wear on the parts, while keeping the ball return speed. The myth of slowing down the pinsetter slows the game is false. With everything else remaining the same, slowing the gearbox does not slow down the ball return speed. It still takes about 15 seconds from the time the ball hits the pins until it reappears in the power lift. In that time, the pinsetter has cycled completely, even running at "A" speed.

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                • #53
                  Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                  Jetback, also some had cable triggering. PJ
                  I'm going fishing and camping!

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                  • #54
                    Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                    Just spoke with a mechanic that has 81000 serial number machines and they are factory A's. Go figure.
                    TSM & TSM Training Development
                    Main Event Entertainment
                    480-620-6758 for help or information

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                      Originally posted by SoCalTom
                      On some imported (to the US) models, the motor pulley had a larger motor to jackshaft pulley, which made the back-ends run faster. This was done to speed up the ball return to the bowler, and get the pit conveyor to run faster; however, it had major drawbacks. Parts breakage increased from the increased speed, such as pit conveyor mounts and gearbox linkage.
                      Tom...these pulleys you are speaking of were installed in the host country because they run 50HZ there instead of 60HZ. It kept the speed exactly the same as their US counterpart by using this oversized pulley. If they were brought into the states, the pulleys should have been changed to the 60HZ version. Anyone not changing the pulley size was only trying to save a dime...but ended up costing themselves in repairs farther down the line.
                      TSM & TSM Training Development
                      Main Event Entertainment
                      480-620-6758 for help or information

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                        After thinking on it a bit, it would appear that it was during the 80,000-89,999 production runs is when the A-2 field conversions of still factory produced and prior-purchased A versions began, and it took Brunswick from 1962 to 1967 to facilitate a "Factory"-offered version. Appears to have been done on the 5 year plan to both key-up for full factory A-2 production as well as test the waters to see how hot the A-2 version would be. The Jet-Back would appear an "A-only" conversion to not only improve some areas of the machines basic functions, but to speed up ball returns. My gravity-return A's were good, but a booster would've been a definite improvement in some peoples eyes.

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                        • #57
                          Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                          OK, this is the info I've been able to find. In my 1971 parts book you can go to pages 34 (dated Jan. 69) and 35 (picture of the scotch yoke breakdown dated Oct. 67) it lists a Deck Lift Hook Cam 12-100831 for machines 90,000 and up-A2, or a 12-100387 Cam for machines prior to 90,000-A. Also page 143 says that the gear drive cross conveyor drive set-up was for 93,002 and up or Sept 1968 and on. I also have the original 60's green paperback A2 Service Manual that shows the cross conveyor gear drive and scotch yoke in the illustrations. Hope this info helps.

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                          • #58
                            Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                            Originally posted by A24me
                            OK, this is the info I've been able to find. In my 1971 parts book you can go to pages 34 (dated Jan. 69) and 35 (picture of the scotch yoke breakdown dated Oct. 67) it lists a Deck Lift Hook Cam 12-100831 for machines 90,000 and up-A2, or a 12-100387 Cam for machines prior to 90,000-A. Also page 143 says that the gear drive cross conveyor drive set-up was for 93,002 and up or Sept 1968 and on. I also have the original 60's green paperback A2 Service Manual that shows the cross conveyor gear drive and scotch yoke in the illustrations. Hope this info helps.
                            That 93,002 thing isn't accurate. I got 10 factory A-2's in the 91,000 series with the gear drive set up.
                            The older the part, the STRONGER it is.

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                            • #59
                              Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                              I believe you are correct as the factory A2 series looks to start at 90K. It is possible that it wasn't until the 93,002 that it was being included on all factory produced pinsetters, so from 90K through 93K it could be hit and miss. Hard to say without being involved on the assembly line, but I have to agree I thought that notation was strange. Just wanted to pass along all of what I found.

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                              • #60
                                Re: The mystery of the 80000 serial number pinsett

                                EXELLENT INFO George_Koren!!!!

                                I have been looking for detailed info on this subject for years, and it is GREAT to get first hand knowledge from someone who was there in the early days of the Brunswick pinsetters.

                                Your knowledge is greatly appreciated, and valued.

                                Please post more info if you can, and any documentation of any kind that you can scan in and email or post would be fantastic!!

                                Thanks for contributing your knowledge to BowlTech.
                                Bruce
                                Respectfully,
                                A2-Ace

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