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  • Serial Number Confusion

    Ok this topic has been around before, but I have recently become a bit confused on what the actual serial number of a machine is. Is it the numper stamped on the various parts i.e. gearbox, turret,deck, cross conveyor..etc..OR is it the number stamped into the name plate AKA machine number?

    Reason I'm asking is I was always in the belief that the numbers on the parts were the S/n. I have seen posts on BT that suggest this as well. If that is the case then my machines should not exist. 8x,xxx is stamped on all the parts. They have die cast gearboxes, cam followers instead of toes in the detectors, and scotch yokes. HOWEVER, the machine number on the name plate is 9x,xxx. That fits more in line with what the manuals and parts book say.

    Obviously these are some early versions of a factory A2 as the elevator frames are clearly converted A, yet the number stamped on them is in line with the rest of the parts. The side frames are clearly A2.

    The lowest machine number in the series (which are for the most part sequential) is around 90,400.

    So..I guess these machines are actually in the 90,000's?
    <span style="font-style: italic">Sometimes it is best to use good advice from many individuals to achieve the ultimate result.</span>

  • #2
    Re: Serial Number Confusion

    you got yourself a cool setup. sounds like they had a bunch of elevator frames laying around, and paired them up with "newer revised" ideas of the Factory A-2. the only thing that thats different between elevator frames is the ball lift support that gets chopped off for conversion, and the brackets to mount to the kickbacks. no reason to destroy good frames just for that.

    so it sounds like they took an A, put A-2 side frames, A-2 scotch yoke gearbox, A-2 cushion and liftrods, and an A-2 motor pulley and WAH LAH! our A-2. right?

    what kind of pit frames? three bolt clamp or quick release?

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    • #3
      Re: Serial Number Confusion

      Our machines all have scotch yokes. They are mixed matched rebuilds in sense of the serial numbers. For instnace on one machine, data plate and stamp on cross conveyor is in the 6,000's, gearbox stamping, deck stamping, and lower rear guard stamping is in the 104,000's. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif[/img]
      * this space left blank intentionally *

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      • #4
        Re: Serial Number Confusion

        Cross conveyor housings can be changed.

        Gear boxes can be changed.

        Detectors can be changed.

        Turrets can be changed.

        Serial numbers are intended to match parts to that part of the machine. If you have a detector with rollers but it is on a 6,000 serial number machine...you will use the proper parts for that detector...not the serial number that is anywhere else on the machine.

        There have been issues in the past about the serial numbers of certain improvements on the A-2. When did the scotch yoke come out...when did rollers for detectors come out...when did the true A-2 elevatro frame come out? You get the idea...no doubt they all did not show up at the same time. They were phased in as time went along...as parts in the wharehouse were used up. I do not have a difinitive answer except to say follow the serial number on the assembly you are working on.

        Adam...they are not Japanese...are they? There is no number history on those...unfortunately.
        TSM & TSM Training Development
        Main Event Entertainment
        480-620-6758 for help or information

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        • #5
          Re: Serial Number Confusion

          Not Japanese. They say Made in USA. The number stamped on the cross conveyor housing just above the ID plate is 82,xxx, however on the plate just below that on the same machine (and they're all this way) is 90,xxx.

          As far as using the Sn on the part I'm working on, that won't work either in my case. The parts book shows the parts needed for these machines to be "for machines above 90,000." All parts are stamped 8x,xxx.
          <span style="font-style: italic">Sometimes it is best to use good advice from many individuals to achieve the ultimate result.</span>

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          • #6
            Re: Serial Number Confusion

            Japanese A2 machines have a J in the front or the end of the Serial numbers.
            Now if i can only find Murphy and kill him.

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            • #7
              Re: Serial Number Confusion

              Originally posted by Steve Stafford (JBEES)
              Cross conveyor housings can be changed.

              Gear boxes can be changed.

              Detectors can be changed.

              Turrets can be changed.

              Serial numbers are intended to match parts to that part of the machine. If you have a detector with rollers but it is on a 6,000 serial number machine...you will use the proper parts for that detector...not the serial number that is anywhere else on the machine.

              There have been issues in the past about the serial numbers of certain improvements on the A-2. When did the scotch yoke come out...when did rollers for detectors come out...when did the true A-2 elevatro frame come out? You get the idea...no doubt they all did not show up at the same time. They were phased in as time went along...as parts in the wharehouse were used up. I do not have a difinitive answer except to say follow the serial number on the assembly you are working on.

              Adam...they are not Japanese...are they? There is no number history on those...unfortunately.

              All of the gearboxes are in the 103,000-104,000 range, it just the data plates on the cross conveyors that dont match on some machines.
              * this space left blank intentionally *

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              • #8
                Re: Serial Number Confusion

                Adam,
                You need also remember, many current bowling centers, especially with newer machines, were installed with used equipment. With so many assemblies bought and sold separate from the original machine they were assembled on, and as many machines were installed, removed and installed again and assemblies torn down and rebuilt and machines reassembled in the field, it's no wonder the numbers are mis-matched. As Steve said, you need to pay close attention to the notes in the parts book ie: "for machines prior to...XXX" or "for all machines XXXX and up".


                Lonnie
                "Efficiency is, doing better what is already being done!"
                Pinsetter Technical Services 214-505-7663

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Serial Number Confusion

                  I have even seen cross conveyor plates that are numbered in the 200,000 area and the gear box is a 5,000 serial number.

                  Brunswick had a program to rebuild pinsetters and every machine received a new serial number, the serial number on the gear box was destroyed with no number left on it. You can still decipher the original number if you look close enough though.

                  I do not look at the cross conveyor plate as it rarely is correct for the devices I am working on.

                  Here is a picture of a 200,000 serial numbered machine name plate...



                  Here is Brunswicks attempt to cover up the original plate...you can see the original serial number still imprinted in the plate...even though it was painted over.



                  Here is a picture of a plate that was not painted over(different center) and you can see the location of the serial number on this plate is the same as the one that was painted over.



                  Kind of cool stuff...I had never seen remanufactured machine plates from Brunswick. I had always assumed they left the original plate on the machine...but they changed them and gave the machine a new identity. (Must be some witness protection program done by Brunswick. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] )


                  Adam...your situation is one of those that has raised questions in the past. Brunswick states that the A-2 started at serial number 80,000 while the new gear box was supposed to start at 90,000. I don't believe the numbers are as accurate as they have posted...I think they used up the inventory that they had then started using the new versions. When the changes actually occured are probably not at a specific serial number.
                  TSM & TSM Training Development
                  Main Event Entertainment
                  480-620-6758 for help or information

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Serial Number Confusion

                    Ok giving this more thought and asking some qiestions at the center leads to this. These machines (1-18) were installed new as an addition to the center in 1963. Using that date and comparing to the Sn chart in the reference section dictates that these machines MUST be 80,000. The parts conflict (mainly the gearboxes) you mentioned, Steve, is what got me wondering.

                    This is what got me confused...

                    Here is what I'm used to seeing. The machine number and serial number are close.



                    And now the machines in question. Not close at all really. Also note the part number. 12-750000 = A..not A2 which would be 12-752000..but they are definately A2.




                    BTW..I love how brunswick so carefully painted that re conditioned machine..and it's bearings! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]
                    <span style="font-style: italic">Sometimes it is best to use good advice from many individuals to achieve the ultimate result.</span>

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Serial Number Confusion

                      The serial number of the machine as sold is the plate serial number. The casting's serial number I would not put any stock in...use the 90,076 number for that machine. What is the serial number on the gear box? If the gear box is original...that number might mean even more.

                      Also interesting is the model number...A-2's were sold with the 12-752000 number.
                      TSM & TSM Training Development
                      Main Event Entertainment
                      480-620-6758 for help or information

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Serial Number Confusion

                        Gearbox, deck, turret, and elevator frame all very closely match the stamping on the cross conveyor. 8x,xxx
                        <span style="font-style: italic">Sometimes it is best to use good advice from many individuals to achieve the ultimate result.</span>

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                        • #13
                          Re: Serial Number Confusion

                          Obviously the castings on the gear box would take presedense...but it all is confusing. i think we are right back where we started. These all have scotch yokes...correct? Which would put the plate as the correct number...but I have never done it that way. I have always used the casting number...because they could be changed out and that would mean you would need to use the parts for that changed out part and not the number on the plate.

                          This is where Brunswick would need to make some clarifications...but I don't think there is anybody left that can do that. Frank Mirabali maybe...I think I have his number somewhere. I could call him and see if he has an answer...anybody have his number handy? PM me if you do. Don't post it here on the board. He may get all kind of strange calls...LOL [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]
                          TSM & TSM Training Development
                          Main Event Entertainment
                          480-620-6758 for help or information

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Serial Number Confusion

                            Yep they're scotch yokes even though according to the parts book they're not supposed to be especially if I go by the 80,000 range S/n. Also they're not supposed to have die cast gearboxes per the maunal.

                            This is most obviously a very early installation of the "factory A2" series by Brunswick. Like I stated earlier this install took place in 1963. Apparently even Brunswick didn't have it all together at the time. I'm not sure if this is the only establishment with this setup but, pending the closure of centers and re location of equipment, I don't doubt it is.

                            FWIW I only posted this thread because I am highly interested in the history of the equipment I work on as, apparently, many others are as well.
                            <span style="font-style: italic">Sometimes it is best to use good advice from many individuals to achieve the ultimate result.</span>

                            Comment

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