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AMF Solid State Switch Hum/Klixon

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  • AMF Solid State Switch Hum/Klixon

    I double checked my wiring on the motor with the instructions. We put it on a motor and it runs quiet and ok for a couple of weeks. Then it begins to hums and struggle to start. It will worsen to the point where it blows the klixon and causes out of time calls. The ironic thing is that when it hums on start up, if you lightly rap the motor, it takes off fine and you can get some cycles before it starts sounding like garbage again. The head is tight, we also tried it on other lanes. Is this a common problem with these. These are the QAMF switches for combo motors. One note here, this was put in a motor where the switch points were worn down to brass. We hooked the new SS switch to the terminal board and just disconnected the 2 red wires going to the physical switch points. Does the motor head become weaker over time. Tested the caps and they are good. Even swapped in caps from a good head just to be sure. We are curious to hear if others have seen the same problems.
    Indexer2

  • #2
    First off I would suggest replacing the klixon. You can compare resistance on the windings with a known good motor
    Regards,

    Billy T
    bthompson@qubicaamf.us

    Comment


    • #3
      Billy, I tried following the installation guide about where the strat and run windings would be. Got out my multi meter and tested resistance. I compared my numbers between a known good motor head and the solid state one and got the same numbers. The solid state one will give me a few starts with the groan and then give me a delayed and then no start condition. Am i not testing correctly? what should I be doing?
      Indexer2

      Comment


      • #4
        Sounds like you're doing it right. Have you replaced the klixon?
        Regards,

        Billy T
        bthompson@qubicaamf.us

        Comment


        • #5
          Billy, sorry haven't been at the center til last night. We didn't change the klixon because it seemed to opearte ok. We did meter check it against a good one and got the same readings. The thing that is bothersome here is that it is acting exactly like a tradiational mechanical switch would. If the motor hums and you lightly rap it, it takes off no problem. Of course this is with the solid state switch hooked up. I don't have a clue why rapping the motor would make it work if there isn't physical contacting going on. The wiring is all clean, all terminals are tight on the original switch. We simply just disconnected the 2 wires at the original switch, put the red on the line going to the start winding and the blue onto terminal 3 of the motor. We can change the klixon if you still think that is something we need to do. The caps seem to test ok on the bench; yet I wonder if one of them is weak. I can't seem to really get field readings. The run winding I think I get about 1.7 ohms on. The start is a bouncing resitance which I figure would be from the caps?
          Indexer2

          Comment


          • #6
            I can't speak for the QAMF switches because I haven't actually used one, but I know the white switches that Stahls Seventys sends out are not actually "Solid State". Many people think they are solid state switches but they are actual "Potential Relays" and they do actually have a moving contact inside. I've had them hum before on 82-70s and I had to open them up and clean them out good with contact cleaner and file the contact a bit and then they worked fine for a year or more. We've also had a bit of trouble with them on 82-30s on a sweep motor when the machine tries to cycle right away after another cycle is done which usually happens on a 10th frame when the scoring attempts to cycle a machine. It doesn't give the switch enough time to reset so it starts humming. Like I said, I'm not sure if the QAMF switches are also Potential Relays, but if they are then they are probably not entirely solid state inside either. The best way to tell would be to open one up and see if you see any contacts.

            This probably didn't help your problem much but I just wanted to give that information.

            Good Luck!

            Louie
            Experience: Currently Help Maintain 44 82-30s and 50 82-70s.

            Comment


            • #7
              Louie,
              The information you gave here is helpful. We had just recently ran one of the white switches and got the same results you did but much quicker. I did open it up and discover the switch does exactly what you said and proceeded to clean and file it as you mentioned. This only gave us maybe another month of operation. The original install of the switch gave us approximately that long too. You are also right in the fact that the short or immediate call for the sweep seem to be the most common time the switch hum or even klixon trip (took too long to start motor) would occur. I did also notice on the white switch that you could see the blue flashes sometimes pretty bright in the white switch. I would imagine that would certainly affect the switch contacts much faster.
              It would be very helpful to know the inside of the QAMF switch and whether or not it is truly solid state. It is only a guess but if rapping the motor will get the motor started with one of these "solid state" switches, there should be some sort of physical contact going on in there? I've really got the impression that the 30's GE motors really don't like anything except the original setup.
              Indexer2

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by indexer2 View Post
                Louie,
                The information you gave here is helpful. We had just recently ran one of the white switches and got the same results you did but much quicker. I did open it up and discover the switch does exactly what you said and proceeded to clean and file it as you mentioned. This only gave us maybe another month of operation. The original install of the switch gave us approximately that long too. You are also right in the fact that the short or immediate call for the sweep seem to be the most common time the switch hum or even klixon trip (took too long to start motor) would occur. I did also notice on the white switch that you could see the blue flashes sometimes pretty bright in the white switch. I would imagine that would certainly affect the switch contacts much faster.
                It would be very helpful to know the inside of the QAMF switch and whether or not it is truly solid state. It is only a guess but if rapping the motor will get the motor started with one of these "solid state" switches, there should be some sort of physical contact going on in there? I've really got the impression that the 30's GE motors really don't like anything except the original setup.
                Indexer2
                Yes, I agree. We have had the same outcome. The white switches seem to work pretty good on the 82-70s Westinghouse & National motors (haven't tried them on 70s GE) and at one center we have had them installed for at least 5 years and I've only had to clean them once. However, on 82-30s we don't have good luck with the switches at all. They don't run very long before they start humming so we have been trying to get by with the original switches, filing and adjusting them if possible. But that can only go on so long until we run out of switches to replace them with since they don't make them anymore. I do have a few new ones left, but once those are gone we'll be forced to find a solid-state switch or potential relay that works a little better.

                Also, I'll bring this up here that Stahls (and possibly AMF) also sells a motor start switch made by Lewus. Part number is 610-309-042. I haven't tried one yet but have been wanting to. I believe that they are actually solid state and I think they have an adjusting screw on them that lets you fine tune the adjustment to make it work with any motor, Backend or Combo. So with this adjustment, maybe it might be possible to get this switch to work on the 82-30 motors better than the other ones we've tried? I want to try it out soon so next time I need to install a switch I might order one. It's a little more pricey. I think it sells for around $72. But it might be an option to try out. Here's the manufacturer's page on it:

                http://www.lewuselectric.com/relay.htm


                Louie
                Experience: Currently Help Maintain 44 82-30s and 50 82-70s.

                Comment


                • #9
                  As far as I'm concerned the best SS start switches were made by Quality. I had 42 (70's) lanes of those things running on every combo and back end motor for years without issues. I would guess the failure rate is higher on the 30's is that the motors draw more current than do the 70's motors....
                  jim8230

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The grey solid state switch is solid state. Lewus switches are not recommended for combo motors
                    Regards,

                    Billy T
                    bthompson@qubicaamf.us

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BillyT4QAMF View Post
                      The grey solid state switch is solid state. Lewus switches are not recommended for combo motors
                      Thanks for the info.

                      I know that at one center we work at (82-70s) that there is a Lewus switch that somebody else installed on a National combo motor and it has been working fine for years as far as I know without problems.

                      Any idea why they aren't recommended for combo motors? Too much stopping and starting? At this point for the 82-30 combo motors we're willing to try anything that might work better than what we've tried already.


                      Louie
                      Experience: Currently Help Maintain 44 82-30s and 50 82-70s.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Louie- Yes we just have found they're better suited for continuous duty, however whatever works is always a good thing
                        Regards,

                        Billy T
                        bthompson@qubicaamf.us

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Billy,
                          I have been meaning to get back to you and the rest on this thread. It took me some time to get to looking at the problem motor head I've been talking about here. Anyway, I went ahead and changed the klixon as you suggested. I also changed both of the caps as a precaution. All of the parts came from a known good motor head. I put the motor head in and got the struggling and mean sound right away. If you reposition the head and tighten it down hard, it can be alot better. What I am starting to think is that it is very critical how you route the wires between the top capping of the motor head and where the terminals/old switch sits. I'm gathering that the tight squeeze here is maybe not letting the head sit as nicely as it should. I have sen on other motor heads where the solid state wires go directly into the plug receptacle. On ours, they are wired to the terminals on the old switch/terminal assembly. I'm gona see during the week if finding a better fit for the wire harness of the solid state switch helps. I'll try and get the results on here when I have more news. Thanks again.
                          Indexer2

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by indexer2 View Post
                            Billy,
                            I have been meaning to get back to you and the rest on this thread. It took me some time to get to looking at the problem motor head I've been talking about here. Anyway, I went ahead and changed the klixon as you suggested. I also changed both of the caps as a precaution. All of the parts came from a known good motor head. I put the motor head in and got the struggling and mean sound right away. If you reposition the head and tighten it down hard, it can be alot better. What I am starting to think is that it is very critical how you route the wires between the top capping of the motor head and where the terminals/old switch sits. I'm gathering that the tight squeeze here is maybe not letting the head sit as nicely as it should. I have sen on other motor heads where the solid state wires go directly into the plug receptacle. On ours, they are wired to the terminals on the old switch/terminal assembly. I'm gona see during the week if finding a better fit for the wire harness of the solid state switch helps. I'll try and get the results on here when I have more news. Thanks again.
                            Indexer2
                            Do me a favor and change the chassis and see if the problem follows you to that lane. If it does, it is the coil on the bottom of sweep contacts in the chassis-I've seen these go bad a few times and the same thing would happen.

                            Billy, what is the part # of the new solid state switch .

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              610309046
                              Switch Motor BE Solid State
                              610309044
                              Switch Motor Solid State (combo)
                              Regards,

                              Billy T
                              bthompson@qubicaamf.us

                              Comment

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