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Brunswick Pins


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  • Brunswick Pins

    We have the Matrix system and we've always used AMF GLO (glow in blacklight) pins. We just got two lanes worth of Brunswick normal (non-glowing) pins and the camera has a terrible time seeing them. I can't even get it to configure properly. Both during cosmic and when all the lights are on. It doesn't seem to make much difference.

    I'm think it's because the AMF pins have a white stripe in the middle of the neck where the camera looks for the pin. The Brunswick pins just have the dark red crown.

    Does anyone successfully use Brunswick pins with this system? If so, any tips?

  • #2
    Are you able to post a pic of the config screen?
    Factory & Converted A-2 (US, Ger, Jap)
    Comscore ECT, Matrix & DuoHD
    Walker B, Sanction Standard, Original K, Flex Walker & Ikon
    Kegel C.A.T.S


    • #3
      So, I replaced the camera (the camera on this pair had some issues anyway). Now the image is clearer and I got it to configure. But it's still not as good as I'd like. With the AMF pins I have all 20 green bars maxed out with brightness threshold set to 6. Swap in the Brunswick pins, and even at brightness threshold 1 not all bars are all the way up.

      This Google Drive folder has some pictures and a video. In the video the brightness threshold is 1.


      • #4
        It looks like you could benefit from more contrast between the curtain and the pins.

        I don't recall having any issues with our Bruns pins when we first opened. Our only issues were because of the pit curtain reflection with our A-2's when the rake was down. I do note you have AMF Spotters however.

        Although we use AMF pins now (for price reasons) I have had success with general light level problems by playing with the camera configuration dip switch settings (on the camera) to increase the contrast between the pins an curtain. This may or may not be another option for you.

        What type of camera do you have?

        Did you have the threshold at 5 with the AMF pins?
        Factory & Converted A-2 (US, Ger, Jap)
        Comscore ECT, Matrix & DuoHD
        Walker B, Sanction Standard, Original K, Flex Walker & Ikon
        Kegel C.A.T.S


        • #5
          I've added pictures of the model of camera we use to the Drive folder linked in my last post. It has a few dip switches, but I'm not sure if any of them would affect the contrast. I also don't know what's different between the "near vs. far" and the "wide vs. tele" on the lens.

          It might be worth noting: on that same pair today, I had an issue with it scoring a miss right as the ball crosses the ball trigger sensor (before the lane even has a chance to cycle). I've had this happen before when the table trigger line isn't configured right, causing it to think the table is already down when it's not. I reconfigured it again and it seems to have gone away. Does the brightness threshold also control the brightness required for it to see the table? If so, I can see why setting the threshold very low might cause this issue.

          Also I think we have the brightness at 5 or 6 on most pairs with our AMF pins


          • #6
            Correct. There must be as much contrast as possible between the curtain and the pins as possible. You really want to aim for a threshold of 5 since the threshold is based on the ambient light.

            We too had issues when we first opened with Matrix in 2008. We also had installed LED pit lights that were problematic with our A2 curtains and caused major issues with reflection from the curtain and scoring delay issues as you described. We ended up reusing rake switches attached to our rake shafts and a software update was made to ignore the table/deck threshold value. It allowed us to use some spare inputs on the MIB so it relied on the switch contact instead to know when the rake was down and thus score after a pre-set delay. The downside is you don't get that dynamic scoring delay which can limit late pinfall errors, but it's been very reliable for us since...but I digress.

            I took a look again at your config photos and they are indeed quite bright on the curtains. I don't have the same cameras, but it looks like you have much the same options to make some tweaks to help with the contrast. It would help a tonne if you could aquire a TV with a video input to have next to the camera on the lane while you play with it. It really takes the guess work out and saves a lot of walking up and down the capping.

            I'll get a photo of our config screen to show you where we have our contrast at when I'm at the bowl on Sunday (Australian time).
            Factory & Converted A-2 (US, Ger, Jap)
            Comscore ECT, Matrix & DuoHD
            Walker B, Sanction Standard, Original K, Flex Walker & Ikon
            Kegel C.A.T.S


            • #7
              This is an old photo (with AMF pins), but it helps illustrate the importance of contrast between the curtain and the pins. Regardless of the type of pins you have you should be able to get it to work if you can tweak the camera settings to obtain a good contrast distinction between the pins and the curtain.
              You do not have permission to view this gallery.
              This gallery has 1 photos.
              Factory & Converted A-2 (US, Ger, Jap)
              Comscore ECT, Matrix & DuoHD
              Walker B, Sanction Standard, Original K, Flex Walker & Ikon
              Kegel C.A.T.S


              • #8
                Well I missed this thread. Probably because the title was Brunswick pins so I didn't bother to look what Forum it was in and skipped over it. However, having seen it now, I think I have the solution to your issue or if not the solution, at least maybe some insight as to why it is happening.

                It appears from your post that you have a basic understanding of how the scoring works. But to resolve the issue, we need to take a little deeper look at what's going on and compare that to what is supposed to happen. During configuration, the scoring determines where the pins are supposed to be. Then during a scoring cycle it looks at these locations and takes a light level reading based on grey scale as to what shade of grey it sees. These are black & white cameras after all. It looks along the neckline of the pins to take this reading. So it sees what is there but you need to ask yourself, how does it know if this is a pin or something else. It must compare that value to some standard to determine if this is a pin or something else. But where does it get the standard to compare it to?

                Since this is a Matrix system, I scoured the Matrix manuals in search of this answer. Unfortunately, it wasn't there. So I dug out my DVS manuals as that is what we had and is the predecessor to the Matrix system. And while this information might have changed, I think it's equally applicable to the Matrix system but just full disclosure here. This is what the DVS manual says.

                "The level required for a Pin to be drawn in green is set using as reference the pit brightness found at the neck position between the 6 & 10 pin for the odd lane and the 7 & 4 pin for the even lane."

                So with that in mind, lets look at a zoomed in capture of the configuration screen that James posted.


                Look along the magenta horizontal line indicating the neck positions. Notice how dark it is along that line between the 6 & 10 pins on the left lane and the 4 & 7 pins on he right line. This is his standard and what his scoring will use to determine if what it sees is a pin or something else. Excellent picture by the way. I'm not sure my calibration shots were ever that clear.

                Now, in contrast, lets take a look at one of yours.


                Look how much brighter yours is in contrast to his. Specifically, notice the brightness along the necklines between the 6/10 and 4/7 pins where it grabs its standard. With James' it's going to see almost any amount of color and register a pin. With yours, it's going to have to be pretty bright to overcome this standard which is probably why you can see the white necks AMF pins but not red necks of the Brunswick pins.

                So what to do about it. Well, let's talk about your camera. First off, your camera says it's power supply is 24 VAC. While this doesn't really matter, it does bring up the question if this camera is fully compatible. I know from experience that not all camera images will be recognized by the software. In my case I came to the conclusion that it was likely do to the image size where the scoring was expecting one size and I was feeding it another and it simply couldn't work out the difference. To better understand what I'm saying here, let's go back to James' image full view this time.


                Notice how wide this image is. A lot of room left of the 7 pin on the odd lane and right of the 10 pin on the even lane. If even looks like the pins are set back further and I think it allows the camera to develop an overall more realistic lighting level. The pins don't appear to be so washed out and has a higher overall definition. This is more in line with what my experience says the image should look like and matches up with photos in the manuals.

                Now lets look at yours.


                Look how tight in it is. It's almost like it's zoomed in. It also looks like daytime under that machine. I'm not sure if the depth of field in this image is an issue or not but all this could be contributing to the brightness level seen by the camera. It may not actually be this bright in your pit but this is what the camera is seeing and that is what matters.

                Try these things in baby steps so you can tell what difference each step made.

                First off, if you have an original camera, you might try moving it to this lane pair and see if it helps with the brightness level.

                Place a black towel or something behind the 6/10 (left lane) and 4/7 (right lane) areas so when the scoring takes the standard, it sees the darkest thing possible. This is just temporary to see if you can get it to recognize 20 Brunswick pins during calibration. Ultimately, this would probably contribute to scoring pins as standing when they were knocked down due to the brightness in the pit area.

                Finally, try to see why things look so bright in the pit. This may be a camera issue where the camera is trying to compensate for low light conditions and would be a compatibility issue. It could also be that the pit is actually this bright due to the type of lights you use, external lighting affecting the area or any number of other things. Ultimately, if you hope to have a chance reading the Brunswick pins, I think you need to get the pit lighting levels down.

                We used both Brunswick and AMF pins over the years and the system had no issues recognizing either one. I think the light is your issue and once you are able to resolve this issue, I think you will not have any further issues.

                Good luck. Keep us posted. I would love to see photos' of the different things you try and the outcome each produces.


                • #9
                  Thanks both of you for the advice. This should all be very helpful. Our new AMF pins arrived from the factory, so I'm going to put off looking into this for now. We did also get a full set of Brunswick pins (got a deal too good to refuse on them lightly used), so I will be picking this work up again sometime. But probably not until summer once leagues are over. I'll provide updates once I resume work on this.


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