Are we helping or are we destroying?

[Guest]

Lately I have been perusing the bowltech topic's and reading random threads. Recently I have noticed a thread in the "Other bowling Equipment" thread. The topic was 7-10's. As im reading this thread I amk asking the question what is going on here?!?! Mechanics talking about doing this and that, manipulating this and that to get rid of 7-10's in the hole. Going to MAXIMUM LEGAL SPECS to improve one or two people's game. Making a direct line into the pocket for people that you darn well know that they might avg duece in there league when in reality they are a 150 bowler just because you let them! Now granted that the game today has become "Make the customer (ie: league bowler) happy" but isnt that the same as sayin hey someone on my team is absent so I think im going to get Eric Forkel, or Norm Duke to sub for them right before position round? Has bowling become that bad where the mechanics are getting heat from the "Suits" that people aren't carrying anymore? But I thought thats what bowling is about? Why must us as mechanics pamper the 150 bowler that thinks he is 200? In my oppinon mechanics are there to keep the lanes dressed and the machines working in the best possible way they can run, not to hand feed 200 games to bowlers. Look ball companies take care of the bowlers, let us mechanics take care of the centers, and our machines. Do we not have pride for ourselves that we have to go down to the level of cheeting bowlers out of there real talent? If one league complanes that there not getting messengers across the front of the deck instead of the back are we going to angle the kickbacks now? Maybe tilt the machine so it faces 10 degrees to the left so you can get that action. Heh its a joke and frankly I think mechs should stop worrying about the bowler and keep up on there PM. But i guess thats how bowling is today but here is one mech who wont let that political BS get in the way of doing his job. If your 150, dont look at me to make you a 200. Love to hear your oppinions on this matter since every topic is old now thought id throw a new one at ya.

deadwood

[Pindecked]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

I agree with your moral idea here ,but...
Simple economics come into play here.
If it were a proprietor's market as it was in the 60's,((Remember when you could tell a guy to kiss off if he didn't like it ?)),
Then ,you could make them earn it. But,nowadays,it's a bowlers' market,& if you don't GIVE them a 200+ aveerage,they'll go down the road to where someone will.

(I just spent $$ to upgrade from a c-100 to a Phoenix, the adjustment was rough for 10-12 days,& some got downright irate that their 'shot' wasn't quite where it was last month...makes a guy wonder WHY bother !!

Things are much better now,scores are coming back,but,I took an ass beating for doing something good(?)...Kinda makes a guy ..hate people !!

Folks are FAST to turn on you !!

[Steve Stafford (JBEES)]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

Deadwood,
"Going to MAXIMUM LEGAL SPECS to improve one or two people's game."

Your quote...maximum LEGAL limits...does that mean if you put anything at the limits (legal) it is cheating?? All anybody said in those threads were to do things that were all legal. I don't see anything wrong with complying with ABC specs. Do you? And if you do, where would you draw the lines? Is putting a flat gutter at 3 3/8 wrong? Maybe we should change the rules to state no higher than 3 1/2 if the bowler is only a 150 average bowler. I set my conditions and specs in my house for EVERY bowler that bowls there. 100 or 220 average makes no difference to me. They all get the best possibe conditions and specs I can possibly give them. I did that in 1978 and I do it today. Remember, specifications were made to make the game fair. All we are doing is making the game as "fair" as possible within the rules. But, then again...

Just my two cents worth...

Steve

[Wookie8662]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

Well, we could:

Put those old 3lb 12oz pins back in the pinsetters. Who needs pins that rebound 2-3x when hit.

Get rid of the synthetic playing surfaces. Good old pine, maple, and shellac/varnish.

Get rid of the exotic bowling balls.
Rubber balls for everyone!

Get rid of lane oiling/stripping machines.
Spray cans, push brooms, & towels.

There, nobody should be able to average 200 now....

Is this what is needed to make the game "fair"?
The scores have progressed like any other sport that is out there. The equipment, and knowledge of the game has progressed as well.

It's not cheating that is going on, its giving the customers what they pay for, and unfortunately expect in some cases. The real 200 averages wont care what the lanes are like, or how the pins fall. They will average 200 on the parking lot surface. It's the lower average bowlers who "think" they are 200 bowlers that give you the impression of "cheating". Seems to me that these are also the people who voice thier opinions the loudest, when it comes to the lanes.

About all we can do is try to make as many bowlers/customers happy, so they will stay and come back again.

Bottom line: If ABC/WIBC says its within rules and regulations, how can you say its cheating?

Ok, now you can chew my b*tt off

Wookie

[Oldsmagnet]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

No chewing from me. This is an argument we face daily here. Sure, a good bowler shoule be able to adjust to ~any~ condition. But we all know the "good" bowlers are not the ones keeping our doors open. Here, our bowlers only have one choice, to bowl, or not to bowl. Period. We don't have competition from other centers. We have competition from the golf course... from satellite TV... from cruising main streets, the local bars, the internet, virtually ~everything~ that can be construed as fun or entertainment, that's our business's competition. If they can have more fun elsewhere for their $10 spent, they'll go elsewhere, and we'll lose their $10. Period. So, it's not our job to make sure they score 200. It's not our job to make sure the lanes stay running. It ~is~ our job to make sure they're having FUN. And unfortunately, that means making sure they're scoring higher than they really should be able to... and making sure the lanes stay running smoothly... and kissing thier butts when things go wrong. Unfortunately, that has to happen too often too.

Now there's another side of the coin I have to mention, with regards to condition. I recommend a new ball to Joe Bloe. He spends $300 with me to get this new ball. But I don't give out the shot that his new ball is really meant for, and his score suffers. Is he going to buy another ball from me? Ever? Not likely. I think it's worth the time and expense to cater to those who ~have~ spent the money on equipment, although they usually only ~think~ they're good bowlers. They are likely the ones who will ~keep~ buying new equipment on whims.

My $0.02 at least

[Ed Fox]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

Hey Deadwood, dont sugar coat that, tell us how you really feel!

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[Ed Fox]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

How come IM the only IDIOT on here that uses their own name as a member?!!!!!!!!!

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[Steve Stafford (JBEES)]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

Olds...why would you recommend a ball to a customer that you know would not work for him due to the lack of a proper oiling condition condusive to that ball? Why not recommend a ball that would work on your lanes. Wouldn't you be serving the customer better by selling him something that would make him "happy". I'm not a pro shop operator, so I'm not sure what keeps you guys in business...but that would seem to make more sense.

What do you think?

Just my two cents worth...

Steve

[Oldsmagnet]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

Mainly a hypothetical situation, but there are times (especially here) when conditions change, etc etc. I don't do much with the pro shop either, so I base it solely as a point to ponder. Much of the time, the bowlers are well self-educated, and make up their own mind for what they want (knowing our usually condition, or thinking they do, at least) and say "I want this ball" If it seems ~way~ out of line, I'll step in and recommend against it cuz its "too much ball for ~you~..." or something. But most of the time, it all works happily on it's own.
The point, if there even was a point I guess was that if we were to revert back to "just" the legal limits (what 3 or 5 units???) his new ball would not make him very happy.
If we had a house average of 250, I'd probably take a different look at things, but that's how things stand in Sidney Montana right now We see the bad bowlers struggle, we see the good ones struggle. Occasionally everything works right, and everyone rocks, and has a good time. They laugh louder, they drink more, they're more willing to come back the next week. Which means more money.

But you are correct, if I held a uniform shot here day in day out, all week long, and I recommended a ball to someone that is simply ~not~ designed for our conditions, I certainly would not be doing him any favors. (hmm... that gives me an idea <evil grin!> ) I only put that down as a basic point of argument (and at 4AM, it probably wasn't all that well thought out )

[Roscoe]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

Deadwood:
Its a good thing to tilt at windmills.
Brings up some productive thoughts.
Keep it up.
Roscoe.

[Guest]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

MPS: Thanx, just a change of pace ya know? As to JBEES...LEGAL! Not illegal. Tilting a pindeck to improve carry of the 7 or 10 is cheeting no matter how you look at it from an abc point of view or mechanic point of view. In agreence with olds the proshop's nowadays sells 200 avg's gaurenteed with todays balls. The only way to make things fair again despite the use of "furballs" and "wheele monsters" is to lay out a 1-1 shot dead flat. Go 45 ft with the oil and watch em fry, that is fair! Sorry quit or dont quit, to me as a mechanic I dont care if there here or not. I do my job and what is expected of me. But lately it sounds like that the job description of a Mech is to listen to bowlers whine and complain that this sucks and that sucks, you suck and I suck. I mean with all this sucking going on who cares about fairness nowadays. Sorry rambled off there, I think you get my point.

deadwood

[Ed Fox]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

Bussiness is bussiness, I dont care if its a grocery store, department store, hospital, or a bowling center. The main goal is to make the visit as painless as possible!Nobody wants to be told that they are less then what they think they are. If the tools and the manipulatoin of the lanes puts a smile on our customers faces then I know I did a good job! If you dont do it somebody else will! If knowing you seperated the good bowlers from the so so bowlers and that makes you feel better about you self then more power to you but when your going home with one pocket full of money were going home with two!

Ed

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[Steve Stafford (JBEES)]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

So if I tilt a pindeck to "help" scores but, keep it legal...I'm cheating? Or am I missing your point...help me out here.

Steve

[8270_mech]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

Okay, I quit smoking VERY recently and seem to have some excess energy, so here goes:

Deady, I think that you have nailed this rat to the door! In my little neck of the woods, there are always those bowlers that have been told that they are great and have the newest "hook in a box" from the pro shop ($200) to try to prove it.

The problem is that they are no better than they were with a low grade K-Mart Blue Light Special left over from 1965, yet I'm expected to change the physical setup of 40 lanes and alter the oil pattern to suit them on a daily basis. Telling my son that he is the next Einstein WILL NOT make it so and neither will telling a 150 bowler that he/she now is an instant scratch bowler either!!

To every one that doesn't understand what Deadwood was trying to say, think of this: No offense intended, but if you think that illegalities don't or can't occur WHILE being within ABC specs, you haven't yet met the lower side of our profession. I've bowled on lanes in the US that have a groove cut from the second arrow into the pocket. If you don't think that this will make a difference, you are nuts. However the groove is well within the tolerance allowed by ABC. Is this legal/moral/ethical??

What if I substituted lane conditioner to create that same groove? Is this any more illegal/immoral/unethical?? Under the current rules I'm allowed to. This doesn't make it right!!

There is a move on in this sport to allow stupid things all in the name of revenue. There seems to be no HONOR left in the house. If bowling were a female, we'd be selling her (and little pieces of ourselves) for ~$3.00 a whack. I'd rather see this sport only in the museum than to pimp what's left of it away.

I run a pretty standard shot, not too much nor too little oil, the lane wood is kept as near the CENTER of ABC specs as it can be for it's age and I refuse to alter it so that one set of old coots can bowl better than the other. Damn coots.


All right, bring it on...

[Ed Fox]

Re: Are we helping or are we destroying?

Steve, What Im saying is take things to the limit, and if possible a little more! Your goal should be to make the game as much fun for the bowlers as possible! I have gotten a million times "look at how he threw that ball! Hes only a 180 average bowler and averaging 220! This **** keeps up IM not coming back next year!" A) they come back every year B) my theroy is if the 180 average bowler is averaging 40 pins over his average then why isnt the guy (I mean person) thats complaining averaging 260 if its that easy! Jack up your decks, max out your kick backs, extra suport under your flat gutters, a little ZEP on your pin wipes( this exclude Brunwick pinsetters, using ZEP is a disaster!) The better they bowl the more they spend! Its the best marketing tool out there!
Ed

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