Falling pins

[pat]

Hey guys. The longer I am here I am finding the more I do not know.

Here is another new one.

About once a game on a four person league we have a lane that throws its rack during spotting. As usual it will not do it when you are watching. It waits until you turn your back or something. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img]
It looks kind of like a pin botton is hitting a finger.


After it does this there is only one or two pins standing. When you look in the bin there is an extra pin in the two, three, and 8 pin place.

I have went through the respot adjustments to no avail. The pins are on spot and the spotting adjustments are fine also.

Could this be a gear box?

Any help would be appreciated.

[8270 pinspotter]

Re: Falling pins

The respot cells could be binding every once in a while causing this problem. Make sure all the plastic ends are on the fingers (if you use them) and that the frames are clean and free of gunk, which will cause binding. Also does this happen after a strike? If you don't have short strike cycles the respot cells might not be opening fast enough which could also cause the pins to hit the fingers. Just a few thoughts.

[BigDawg]

Re: Falling pins

u can also check to see if a ball is roll right behind the pin deck if the table comes down and a ball is there it will dumb a rack

just my 2 cents

[pat]

Re: Falling pins

If you don't have short strike cycles the respot cells might not be opening fast enough which could also cause the pins to hit the fingers. Just a few thoughts.


I thinks this may be it. What would cause the cells to open slowly?

How do you quote previous posts here on Bowltech?

[TheGMan143]

Re: Falling pins

Cells can open slowly for a lot of reasons... excessively dirty finger tracks, misajustment, worn cams, and ESPECIALLY from binds (usually caused by pinjams). Drop all the cell links, and move the stringers, if you feel a bind, it may be that one of them is bent, and contacting the table bolts or the top of a cell, or one of the pivot "boomerang" pins might be bent. If there's no binds there, attach one cell at a time and check the movement... if you get a bind after adding a cell, you probably have a bent pivot pin or a bad cell.

You can check the cell opening speed on a strike pretty easily... get all the pins down into the pit & shut the pit off, set to 2nd ball, close the fingers, cycle the machine, and trip the binswitch. The fingers should have a nice smooth motion from closed to open. If they hang or move too slow, you may have a bind. If they 'snap' open violently, you may have the drive link or respot rod misajusted... when they fly open too fast, sometimes a finger will hop up off the track and jam, causing a temporary bind.

As an aside... check your OS switch and wiring... if it isn't working right, an offspot pin will not be detected, and sometimes a new rack will be spotted on it.

Bad cell wires will cause this problem, too. Ex: if your 5-pin wire is off or broken, as long as there is at least one other pin besides the 5 standing, the machine will cycle normally. Leave a lone 5-pin, the machine will pick it up, then spot a rack with the pin still in the cell. Any pins that don't make it to the deck and stay in the cups will cause the bin to drop only the pins that are missing from the cups, and leave the others there, causing the missing pins in the bin.

If you have autoscorers, the cell wire info may not apply, as most of the scoring systems bypass the cell wiring to some degree.

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: TheGMan143 ]

[Jimmy Jam]

Re: Falling pins

GMAN, whats up with that Off-Spot theory. :p Just keeping you on your toes man. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]

Pat, dont want to scare you or anything but the last time I had a table dumping pins like that all night the table shaft snapped in 2 the next day. Its my early warning system for a shaft going out.

[Jimmy Jam]

Re: Falling pins

Pat, do you have spot AND respot solenoids?

Members, Can this have anything to do with it? I've never studied the 2 solenoid machine.

[DetroitSignal]

Re: Falling pins

Just a suggestion if you have trouble with the pin bottom hitting the number 7, 8, 9, or 10 respot cell while spotting...If it appears that the fingers will not travel forward enough upon re-opening to clear the pin, do the following... take a rubber rivet and cut it to a piece about 3/4 inch long, take that piece and lay it on the table casting behind the rear finger, inside the cell area so that it acts like a stopper for the finger and forces the front finger toward the front of the cell frame when the fingers open. Duct tape the rivet to the casting. Its a good way to get out of the shift without changing a respot cell.

Was that clear? I even had a hard time getting that one, and I typed it!!

[TheGMan143]

Re: Falling pins

Quote:]Originally posted by Jimmy Jam:
GMAN, whats up with that Off-Spot theory. :p Just keeping you on your toes man. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]

Pat, dont want to scare you or anything but the last time I had a table dumping pins like that all night the table shaft snapped in 2 the next day. Its my early warning system for a shaft going out.[/QUOTE]

On our machines, if the OS switch is messed up and doesn't detect an off-spot pin, the machine will try to spot... started happening after the autoscoring was put in. Albeit, these animals have had some strange mods done to them, including some shifts in the wiring.... they work pretty good, but it's a hell of a job if I have to go chase a circuit... what's shown on the schematic and what I actually find on the machine are two very different things in a lot of cases.

You're scaring me with this 'table shaft breakage' stuff... around 13 yrs. in the biz, and I've never seen it happen... you guys talk about it like it's a fairly common occurrence. Yikes...

[deadwood_dup1]

Re: Falling pins

Mama Mia. Hah how wierd. Offspot switch? hmmm

Pat: You stated in your post that there were pins left in the pin at the two, three and eight. I wonder were those pins missing on the pindeck? If this is the case a few things come to mind.

If those pins are missing and its on a Full bin (double pins) or even half full when the shuttle cam rotates, the roller bearing falls into the low dwell if the cam which moves the shuttle forward via the Lever attached to the Shuttle spring.

If that lever (070-006-295) has some dried up grease from one of your pinchasers or the most common, rust inside the piston of the shuttle spring. The rust turns into a solid form and would prevent the spring from operating properly. Your shuttle may retract but not fully or slowly. Hence a pin falls through and nocks pins over and you find your doubles at the two, three and eight. Although if you didnt experience a table jam then my fingers just got some exersise. But I feel that if you check your shuttle spring you will find that it is ineed of service. It is one of those parts that is most likely forgotten when it comes to PM.

Good Luck

Deadwood

[pat]

Re: Falling pins

I got IT!!!!!!!!!!!! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

Let me tell you what I did. First of all this was very simple but hard to see. One of the respot levers on the table had broken. The two ends were wedged together so that it would work most of the time.

I followed a lot of all your advise, thanks guys. I found it by using the G-mans idea of unhooking the cells and find where it is binding. When I did this I saw that the 3 pin cell was binding against the wireway due to sagging the broken lever created.

I sure like this site and thanks guys. I hope I can help you as much as you help me at times. Keep this going [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

Pat

[CommunityBowl]

Re: Falling pins

I had the same problem a couple weeks ago only I didnt get time to find the problem on my own. Only being here 2 years and only 6 machines It was pretty obvious what my problem was when the table just kept going up and down. Drive shaft broke at the second keyway. Lots of work changing for a new guy!!!

Glad to see your problem wasnt this!! Now I've got some extra knowledge for the next time I have a spotting problem.

[vinson]

Re: Falling pins

Hey,Jimmey, the respot solonoid could be a problem. I work on them once a month,instead of the alum links(rails)for the respot cells they come with link respot connectors,(070-002-671) which makes them very weak for a pin in the table, and the linkages I find it hard to explain its nothing pretty but I will try. an L shaped piece of steel is bolted to the links(rails) then a threaded 1// piece goes through the short part of the L and a nut is applied on both sides this is where you adj. the length, the other end of the threaded piece goes into the respot cell.Its quite a mess,they are stiff with any little ding.Otherwise I have never had any problems with it.
Hope this helps someone

[TheGMan143]

Re: Falling pins

You're scaring me with this 'table shaft breakage' stuff... around 13 yrs. in the biz, and I've never seen it happen... you guys talk about it like it's a fairly common occurrence. Yikes...

I hadda go and say that, didn't I...

Lane 26 decided that it didn't like it's old driveshaft, and it wanted a new one... snapped off right next to the pacman cam... about 2 hours before the leagues come in, on a packed-house night with no open pair.

What a pain in the arse... I have been saying for years that the damn machines have ears... now, apparently, one of them has a connection to the Internet as well. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif[/img]