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  • Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

    What do you think of a new distibutor that can be programmed (sorta like the GS machine) to spot only the desired pins?

    I realize no one plays "Cocked Hat & Feather" (pins 1, 5 , 7 & 10) any more, as that went out with pin boys.

    It would make it MUCH easier on you guys, during leagues, when a respot is needed. How many respot calls do you get a shift, (Respot the 5, 8 & 10 on 13, Please!)?

    The bowler simply pushes the correct pins on his/her keypad, and hits "respot". The table then spots ONLY those pins!

    I am working on a design that's controlled by the computer, but I'm getting hung up on the control mechanism, and compatibility with existing equipment. No more steering cam, or pin misfeeds, as the new distributor would be independantly operated with it's own motor and servos.

    Good idea? Bad? Helpful hints?

    Doug

  • #2
    Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

    Doug,

    I too have thought of a similar concept.

    One idea I had would be to redesign the shuttle to pull in only those pins that are being respotted. However the distributor would have to be computerized to double feed those pins. This idea has the most complications but would be the fastest for execution purposes to keep the bowlers on schedule.

    The other idea I had was very similar to yours. However I would keep the steering wheel intact but modify it with stop sensor points. The clutch would have to be controlled with a solenoid and connected to some isolated logic circuit (that would interface with the chassis) this would dump the full load in the bin and then feed and respot the requested pins. This idea would be the easiest to incorporate with the existing equipment and least amount of modification. Also the BE motor would need to be shut off when the desired pins were fed and the distributor repositioned itself at the head pin.

    One problem I see with both ideas is that your table must be very well adjusted to be able to spot just one pin.

    I think this idea would be easier to incorporate with an 82-30 since the pins are fed directly into the cups and the pins are not released until called for by the pin counter, which would also have to be computerized.

    One other idea I had, was to have the respot cells individually controlled by redesigning the links. On a full rack, only the designated respot cells would close.

    Triac

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

      Not to burst anyones bubble.....but DBA had such an apparatus for a Brunswick machine.

      As novel and practical an idea it is......it is just not needed.....or should I say the invention would not pay for itself on a pinspotter.

      I do not know of any A2's with the DBA mod still in existsnce.....there was a pair at Western Bowl (Hoinke) with this mod.

      Now let me give you one.....just redesign the distributor.....proprietors would buy a good distributor.

      Jerry

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

        Triac,
        You're on the right track (pun intended). :p

        The bin would also have to be modified. The shuttle would have 10 solenoid controlled pockets that are individually programmable. The distributor would load the bins normally. The shuttle would release ONLY the pins called for when put in "respot mode".

        Jerry, I see your point. Cost effective? I've been racking (pun intended) my brain for months, mulling over that one.

        I'm STILL looking at a faster back end for the '70, with a more precise bin loading system that eliminates the back and forth movement of the unit. It works on a "Smart Shark"-type of system, that would still use the existing back-end, i.e. pit carpet, pinwheel, etc.

        This is kind of a hobby for me. I haven't invented anything yet, but having fun trying!

        TTYL!
        Doug

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

          Originally posted by 82/70 king:
          Not to burst anyones bubble.....but DBA had such an apparatus for a Brunswick machine.
          <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No bubbles bursted here…DBA nor anybody else has incorporated anything for an AMF. It must have not been to bad of an idea or Brunswick wouldn’t have incorporated it into their new GS series.

          As novel and practical an idea it is......it is just not needed.....or should I say the invention would not pay for itself on a pinspotter. .
          <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is true to some extent…If something could be mass-produced and sold within reason; I would buy it since 75% of my calls are respots and OOR’s. When my kickers could no longer keep up with the oil demands (ball calls were 60% fps) I converted them to PBL’s @ $1600 a pop (this was before the PBL lite system came out). Now ball calls are practically non-existent…Well worth the cost.

          Now let me give you one.....just redesign the distributor.....proprietors would buy a good distributor. .
          <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree 100%…with most of the concentration spent in the orientation area. I don’t have to many issues with the distributor except the above. I don’t know if I would spend the money for a full redesigned distributor since distributors aren’t too much of a problem for me. I would however upgrade to a redesigned orienting modification if it were reasonable.

          I think Doug has the right idea about a solution to a problem…IMO I dropped my idea of computerized distributors and shuttles because of the cost factor.

          I am now more focused on having the respot cells each controlled by individual servos that would interface with the scoring system. The concept is actually quite simple. Have the camera do a second scan. If the second scan is different than the first…instruct the machine to sweep and set a full cycle and respot the necessary pins and put logic on second ball. This concept could go along ways since it could also be programmed to do the same if an OOR occurred.

          Triac

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

            [quote]Originally posted by triac:
            I agree 100%…with most of the concentration spent in the orientation area. I don't have to many issues with the distributor except the above.
            <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fret ye not... there is a cure.

            I know it's out there, but I'm not sure of the manufacturer... I think it's Stahl's/Tuffy...

            Saw the orientor pins off of the pan, and mount a set of rods hanging down ABOVE the pan (from a plate mounted on the back of the wheel), that are fixed in position relative to the pan. The theory behind it is simple and solid:

            When the orientor pan swings, the distance between the wheel and the orientor pins changes. For example... when a headfirst pin comes off the pan with the distributor at the #10 bin, it has to "roll out" farther before contacting the orientor pin, than when the distributor is at the head pin (and vice versa for butt-first pins and opposite-hand machines). Add it all up... A headfirst pin takes longer to roll and turn, and then it's followed by a butt-first pin that has a shorter time to turn, and now they're a lot closer together on the belt. If the first pin is delayed just a bit when feeding into the bin, the one behind it is so close that it now either falls short (between bins), or causes a jam on the distributor. This variable roll-off is one of the poorest design ideas on the machine. By mounting the orientor pins to a fixed location, the roll-off and turn distance is ALWAYS consistent, no matter where the pan is... the pins come off evenly spaced, with enough gap to overcome slight feed delays. It could probably be made even better with an adjustable-speed wheel drive pulley... then you could actually control (to a point) how much space is given between pins on the belt.

            Try it for yourself... take 2 Phillips screwdrivers, stand behind the wheel on a step that will allow you to reach over the wheel. As the pins are feeding, hold the screwdrivers firmly in line with the orientor pins when the distributor is at the head pin, but BEHIND the turnpan pins, so the pins hit the screwdrivers and turn without contacting the orientor pins. Watch how smoothly and precisely the pins turn and feed, no matter where the distributor is pointing.

            I am going to put this mod on all our machines, probably over the summer... I've tried it on just one machine for a week, with just a jury-rigged setup, and noticed a difference.
            <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

              Gman,
              I'm in awe. What a GREAT idea! It's the same concept as the A-2's fixed Cross Conveyor, and I can see how it would eliminate MOST pin jams. Pin jams are pretty rare on our new MC2's. IMO, they're the best version of the 82-70 I've ever seen.

              In fact, since I've worked here, I've only been called once to clear a pin jam. Pin jam calls are few and far between on the 8230's as well. The calls are mostly for respots, and minor things, like the bowler didn't know to hit the reset button!

              Why so few stops? Very well maintained house. A lot of what we've been doing is PREVENTATIVE maintainence. I'm extremely impressed by the staff (that I've met so far).

              I digress. The 82-70 type machine is ideal for that distributor/bin mod. The unit that would replace the distributor would be much larger than the existing equipment. The bin stays he same. The shuttle, as I said would be 10 individual solenoid-controlled pockets. There's my challenge.

              How to do it? I'm builing a 1/6 scale model out of brass stock, as we speak. You probably know about my 1/12 scale models on another thread. I'm looking for theory, here. How to install this idea into existing equipment with minimum back-end modification. When I'm done, y'all want pix?

              Doug

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

                Originally posted by TheGMan143:
                Fret ye not... there is a cure.
                <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gman,

                A big improvement, but not a cure. I built my own from a looking at a picture from a flyer I received quite a while ago. I also ordered one to see if it was any better than my clones…Nope…If the price wasn’t so high I would have just ordered them. I can build 5 of them for the cost of one.

                One thing I like about them is the adjustability and when a jam occurs the pins will wedge in the fingers saving the BE plug and drive shaft. I know the BE plugs can be modified so they don’t get wiped out…just got to many things going on to do it.

                I think the orienting pan needs to cradle the pin better, and a slightly larger drive pulley that would bite the pins sooner and increase the speed of the distributor. I can have a perfectly orienting distributor that will not jam even when testing a continuous cycle for 4 hrs. But as soon as they start bowling I will get a jam. Variables that I have noticed while sitting on the machine…oil on the pins and the pinwheel will hiccup (prematurely releasing) when pins crash into from a powerful hit by the bowler. BTW this pinwheel has a new ring tube and bearings. Maybe the pinwheel needs to be a vertical elevator instead of a wheel for more constancy.

                IJMO…Triac

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

                  Maybe some of the 'older' [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] guys can remember this...but...wasn't there an early electronic type distributor on the 82-70As???

                  That would have been before my time, but I thought I have seen photos some place of that. It had all these little 'fingers' on the side and it knocked the pins off to feed the bin.

                  Or, was I smoking something [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] ...

                  Fever [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/usflag.jpg[/img]
                  I really enjoy the Simpsons. My problem is that I am starting to look like Homer. Doh!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

                    StucKInThePit

                    One thing to consider with your individual shuttle system…What’s going to happen to it when pins get in-between the table and shuttle. Even though the bin will allow for some pressure relief, seems to me that those individual pockets would get bent up pretty bad.

                    This happens on occasions because of various reasons.

                    Just a thought you might consider for you design.

                    Triac

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

                      Originally posted by SVLFever:
                      Maybe some of the 'older' [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] guys can remember this...but...wasn't there an early electronic type distributor on the 82-70As???
                      Or, was I smoking something [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
                      <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fever....Nope, you were perfectly clear-headed. I'm not "old" but I have heard of the old 82-70A Distributor. I wish I could see one in action.



                      CLICK HERE FOR MORE

                      Louie
                      Experience: Currently Help Maintain 44 82-30s and 50 82-70s.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

                        Thanks Louie!!! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif[/img]

                        Fever [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/usflag.jpg[/img]
                        I really enjoy the Simpsons. My problem is that I am starting to look like Homer. Doh!!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

                          StuckInThePit: I'm not taking any credit for it... I saw it in a pic off the web a while back... I think it was designed for the AMF's by Tuffy.

                          Triac: I've built my own, too... but I hate to just say that, without giving a plug to the guys that sell it. I made mine with plate, and long shoulder bolts (making the height of the orienting pins adjustable by using them, too). I agree, it's not a cure... there's not much to these machines that is a cure-all. Bowling machines are definitely not set-and-forget items. I have found that the amount of turnpan jams, belt-top jams, and bin jams from pins feeding off too closely is definitely reduced.

                          One way to fix a lot of the pan jam problems would be to make a pan that is more like a 'chute'... maybe a depth of 3-4" from drop-off point to belt contact. Once the pin is more or less butt-first, the chute would completely center it on the belt. Problem? Completely useless idea... the whole back end of the machine would have to be redesigned to make the wheel higher, or the front end lower. Ain't happening.
                          <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

                            OK, here's a "brief" on what I've been working on. First, the distributor.
                            The design is simple, but the cost was prohibitive when I was designing it back around 1991. Eliminates the clutch and the headaches associated with the trip rod-to-clutch adjustment, but still uses the trip rod just for actuation purposes. Also eliminates the need for exact "parallelism" between the trip rod and the carriage.
                            The pin pushes down the trip arms, lifting the rocker arm and trip rod. The rocker has a switch which actuates a DC digital Impulse (Stepper) motor. The motor is programmed to turn one revolution per bin pocket and then stop instantly. It is mounted to the distributor frame and has the pinion mounted to its shaft. The pinion turns the index cam 1/10th rotation.
                            Now the fun part: for a set up, you would program the control device to skip the necessary stops in order to feed only the pins needed. The pinwheel is driven by a clutch-pulley so pin feed to the distributor would stop during long "jumps", such as 1 to 7. The program would also make the pinspotter sweep the pindeck clean, spot the spare once the last pin was in, and put the machine into 2nd ball.
                            The ideal scenario:
                            -Go to the special control bos, mounted to the top of the existing back end control box.
                            -Push the buttons of the pins you want set up. Buttons are in a triangular formation.
                            -Press "Enable"
                            -The machine takes it from there: sweeps &amp; spots twice (no time delay) to empty the bin. Distributor advances to headpin position, or past it to the first pin of the setup. Drops that pin, advances to the next position, skipping the bins not needed.
                            [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif[/img] Cost of the motor at the time was over $1000. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img] I hear that now similar motors are much less. ??

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Programmable Distributor For 82-70, 90, XL, Etc.

                              Almost forgot the table part. This one is still in the works, so I must skip a few details.
                              Basically, the respot cells are individualized, each one actuated by a pneumatic (air) cylinder.
                              This also makes normal respot problems easy to diagnose, since one cell does not affect the others. If there is a problem with respotting the #5 pin, for example, the problem is in the #5 cell or the pneumatic system.
                              After seeing the force behind air cyclinders used in Stahl's Air Exit for the rudder drive, I knew this would work.
                              Same actuation as with the programmed distributor I talked about. Push the buttons for the pins to be spotted, then push "enable". If the machine is in 2nd ball, the sweep does a complete run-through and the table spots a full set, then the machine goes to 1st ball. It cycles again, running a respot cycle, but only the cells for the needed pins close and grip the pins. The rest get swept off.
                              So far, it's working manually, but I need to get the controller programming written and the electronics implemented, as well as work out a few potential switching problems.
                              Cost so far isn't too bad, but know don't know about the electronics.
                              By the way, this upgrade will eliminate the finger link, respot rod, respot arm, carb links, boomerangs, and lots of headaches.
                              Hope to be done with it before the turn of the next century LOL [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

                              Comment

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