kicker problem

[pat]

Hey I have two pairs of lanes that go through 90% of the kicker wheels that I have to put on. I noticed something tonight. Both pairs of lanes the pinsetters are "closer together" The distance between the lanes is narrower than the others.

What should the distantance between the pinsetters be? Would this make a differnce as far as going through kicker wheels?

Thanks in advance.

[Bill F.]

Re: kicker problem

If the wheels are getting eaten, it's possible the kickers are rubbing against side of machine, either continuously or when a ball enters the ball exit. Might want to remove kicker assy. and bring kickers closer together (2 or 3 washers)

[TheGMan143]

Re: kicker problem

Welcome to the club, pat...

Depending on how tight the spacing is, you may have to come up with some very creative ideas... I've been fighting this problem for years... our machines were installed poorly, and we have several pairs that have very low clearance.

Pulling spacer washers is the start... To get the most clearance, I started using distributor clutch washers (thinner, finer adjustment) to get the assembly as narrow as possible (basically just enough space so the drive pulleys don't rub together)

To get more clearance, I also use kickers that are shaped like the original AMF ones... the new 'inverted-shape' kickers stick out too far. (ex: AMF Original shape: /_\ , new inverted shape: \_/ ). On the inverted ones, the upper edge of the kicker may not rub the sideplate when it's running, but when a ball squashes it, it scrapes.

So far, I've had the best luck with the Vantage Red "Football", and the black "Murrey" kickers... seems that they have about the best grab to them.

[pat]

Re: kicker problem

Thanks guys.

G-Man it seems like we have something in common. On our lanes the guy who installed them I am not sure about how good of an installer he was but I know that he got pressurred to get the job done. Now the lower numbered pairs have very few problems and when you get down to the high side we have so many more calls it is unreal. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img]

I have made sure that the kicker assemly is shimed properly and not rubbing on the machine. I was looking for ideas as to why these two pairs go through so many kickers? I do not get it. They are so close I have to relax the springs to get the belt on! But can this alone cause the pinsetter to go through a lot more kickers? I use the vantage kicker that is shaped like the orriginal only inverted.

I have also tried football shaped kickers and have not had much luck with them for some reason.

[Bill F.]

Re: kicker problem

Is it possible that you brought the kickers in too far? Maybe the ball is resting on the kicker wheels. When I adjust my kicker assy's, I try to line up the wheel with the top of the front filler plate.(lip) You can also check the bumper on the rear filler, make sure its still there and nothing is rubbing against it, slowing down the kicker wheels.

[pat]

Re: kicker problem

I know that the best way to fix this is to glue a bin bumper to a filler pad bumper. This changes the angle and the kickers seem to last a lot longer. I am just wondering is I can move the machines a little or something to help solve this. Does changes like this make a difference?

Just a summer thought. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

[rd]

Re: kicker problem

Maybe your kickers are too deep into the ball opening. Try super glueing a small spacer (a piece of carpet works great for this) to the rubber buttons in the filler plate to push the kickers farther back out of the opening. This has helped a lot of my problem lanes.

[joeyopen]

Re: kicker problem

has any esle out there put in a humpback ball return or seen one work. i ahve 1 and its the best thing i ever seen i wish the boss would fill the house with them

[Rep]

Re: kicker problem

pat, common thing to me also. We're a split house and one side is very tight machine to machine, bit of a pain but with tweaking they can work well. One more thing check your starter pad assy to see that it moves freely, if they seize it'll chew up KW's easily

[pat]

Re: kicker problem

I guess what I am wondering is on instalation what would the spec sheet way this distance be. And from these pinsetters being so close is it the angle that is causing the problem or somethig else.

On our lane one and two I have kickers that are so old and small I cannot believe they still work! For those we have been waiting for them to fail but are taking the idea of if it works don't fix it.

On the other end. I chage the kickers constantly and I have even put some of the ones that I take off the end pair onto other lanes and they work [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img]

I have tried all the tricks and have new starter pads and all the others. It is just my summer quest to find out why? It it the distance between the pinsetters? Or is there something else.

One would think that all the pinsetters in a given house should have similar characteristics. Or maybe I am just beating a dead horse I can take out that kicker asembly in three or four minutes. Maybe I should just live with it.

[AMFDOCTOR]

Re: kicker problem

ONE THING THAT I HAVE NOTICED ABOUT KICKERS, IS THAT EVERYONE, AND YOU MAYBE RIGHT, CLAIMS THAT THE KICKER ASY IS ALWAYS AT FAULT. ONE THING THAT I'VE NOTICED ON WHAT KICKERS THAT I HAVE LEFT, IS THAT THE STARTER PAD ASY SEEMS TO CAUSE A LOT OF THE TROUBLE. LET ME TRY AND EXPLAIN. IF IT IS ALL GUMMED UP AND WILL NOT COLLAPS PROPERLY, THE ROLLERS HAVE TO WORK EXTRA HARD TO GET THE BALL IN UNDER THE LIFT. ALSO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE WAY IT IS DESIGNED, IT LETS THE BALL GO IN EASIER FROM THE ODD MACHINE RATHER THAN THE EVEN ONE. THE BALL HAS TO CLIMB A HILL IN ORDER TO PUSH THE PAD DOWN. I HAVE PUT A SCREW AND NUT SYSTEM ON THE BRACKET IN ORDER TO LOWER THE PAD DOWN, SO THE EVEN MACHINE BALL CAN GET IN BETTER. THE PAD IS NOW ALMOST FLAT ACROSS THE FRONT FILLER. YOU CAN TIGHTEN OR LOOSEN THE BOLT TO RAISE OR LOWER THE PAD. ANOTHER THING THAT PEOPLE DO, IS TO ADD MORE SPRING TENSION TO THE BELT TO MAKE IT PULL THE BALL IN. IF YOU STOP AND THINK, THE MORE TENSION YOU PUT ON THE BELT, THE HARDER IT IS FOR THE BALL TO MOVE THE KICKER BACK. I HAVE RIGGED A PAIR OF MY MACINES WITH WHAT I CALL PUSH RODS AND ITS BEEN WORKING FAIRLY WELL NOW FOR ABOUT A YEAR. INSTEAD OF OVER LOADING THE BELT WITH TENSION, I HOOK UP A ROD WITH AN ADJUSTABLE SPRING SYSTEM ON IT. AS THE KICKER MOVES BACK, THE KICKER PUSHES ON THE ROD WHICH LOADS UP A SPRING AND PUTS TENSION ON THE KICKER WHEEL. THE FURTHER BACK IT GOES THE MORE PREASURE ON THE BALL. YOU CAN ALSO ADJUST THE SPRING FOR MORE TENSION TOO. IF THERE'S ANY INTEREST IN IT LET ME KNOW AND I'LL TRY AND GET SOME PICTURES UP. IF THERE IS A REAL INTEREST I'LL GIVE OUT THE DEMENSIONS TOO.

THE DOCTOR

[rd]

Re: kicker problem

IF THERE'S ANY INTEREST IN IT LET ME KNOW AND I'LL TRY AND GET SOME PICTURES UP. IF THERE IS A REAL INTEREST I'LL GIVE OUT THE DEMENSIONS TOO.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That sounds intersting. See if you can get up some pics on that please.

[vinson]

Re: kicker problem

A followup to 82-30s reply, glue a spacer to the start pad tension arm that rests on the up tubes this moves the pad away from the exit and allows for easier entry ,as usual this might work on one machine but not another.

[pat]

Re: kicker problem

I would like to see those pics I have thought something like what you have described would be a great idea. I have had no idea how to build something like you have outlined here. Can you post the pictures? [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img] If not feel free to e-mail them to me. I am looking for a summer project. I am always looking for things to do so that I can justify my job in the summer. We are running out of project ideas it seems. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] Yes I know there is always something to do but the owner and even myself feel better making improvments.

I am still wondering why at one end, where the pinsetter are close together, do we have a lot more ball problems? I like your idea. I too have problems with spring tention. I have a pin chaser who gets that chain so tight every time he has a ball call that the kicker is sure to shred. But that is another issue.

[tinpin]

Re: kicker problem

Minimun distance between kickback plates on an installation is 9 1/2 inches. But you also have to consider the wooden kickbacks. The metal sideplates have to be behind them or you get ball damage. You can't have metal stcking out past the wood. If you still have some space to move the backends apart (without putting metal out) then loosen everything inside the ball return and the bolts holding the front to back and kick the machines away from each other. The max is 10 1/2 inches before you have to go to special shafts for your lifts.
As for your kickers, they should ride about 1/16 away fom the sideplates. Adjust with the washers between tham. Make sure that you have the correct bumpers on your rear filler plates. The are not the same as the ones on the 70 bins. The ones on the plates are thicker.
Pay special attention to the starter pad and make sure the spring on it is not an aftermarket spring. The are too weak to push the ball back toward the belt. I had that problem that like to drove me batty. The spring looks good, it's just too weak. Also make sure that the starter pad doen not stick out over the rubber pad on the traverse plate. It should be just about even with it. Sometimes you have to remove the starter pad assy and bnd it back the way it should be. I've welded coke caps to that little rod that sits behind the riser tube to get the pad back far enough.
Tension on your kickers is very critical. Too much, the balls won't enter; too little, the balls won't go to the starter pad. See if you can find some 000 028 866 spring extensions for your 29601 springs and use them the next time you put on new 28865 or 28864 belts (depending on whether you have 70's o 30's). As the belts wear a little remove the extensions and save for the next new belt.