Sure Pic Problems

[Cal Clark]

Anybody got a book on Surepics? I have one that for a while would not come on when you turned the lane on. It would come on if you flipped the toggle under the hood. This morning I came in and it was on and will not shut off. Only way I could get it to go off was to flip the breaker.
Thanks

[felix]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

Cal; Swap relay or relay's in s-pik box with the next pair? [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] Most fo the time when they come on by themselves a machine b.e. is running and then I would look at the chassis. Only way to get s-pic to shut off was trip breaker? What no screw in s10amp or s15amp fuse?

[TheGMan143]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

You got it... if you pull the relay and take a look at it (it will most likely be an 'icecube' relay)... one or more of the contacts will we blackened or possibly the posts are melted.

The contacts are arcing together and keeping the machine turned on sometimes, other times they are getting out of alignment and not pulling in to close the circuit.

I guess I'll post this again... it may be of some interest to ya:

<div align="center">
<table width="95%" bgcolor="#999999" border="0"><tr><td> </td><td>Here's the schematic. You will need 1 shurpik relay, about 15-16" of 16/18-ga wire (16ga preferred) in the colors BLUE/GREEN/PINK/ORANGE, 8 BLUE butt-splice connectors (crimp-type), and 4 RED or BLUE insulated (non-insul will work, too) female wire terminals, and electrical tape. I use wire from old machine harnesses... even the older (heavier) table cable wires. You can use all the same color, too... just remember to put labels on them so you remember which one is which...</td></tr></table><table width="95%" bgcolor="#999999" border="0"><tr><td> </td><td>To start, you will need to remove the wire shield from ONE END of all the butt splicers. I usually cut them off with a utility knife, or bump them against the grinding wheel to level the plastic insulation with the metal core (as denoted in the pic by the arrow).</td></tr></table><table width="95%" bgcolor="#999999" border="0"><tr><td> </td><td>Check that they fit the relay pins placing one on to a pin with the short end facing the relay base. It should fit snugly to just slightly loose... I use Turner &amp; Betts butt connectors, but we've used other brands with no problems.</td></tr></table><table width="95%" bgcolor="#999999" border="0"><tr><td> </td><td>To build the wires, assemble them as shown in the picture. Keep in mind that when you crimp them together, the SHORT end of the butt connector stays open, and is not crimped. Also be careful that you leave at least 1/2 the core of the connector uncrimped, to leave room for the relay pins. The long wires are about 9", and the short jumpers are about 3". Strip the wires just shy of 1/4" and twist them together before inserting them and crimping the connector. Attach a female terminal to the other end of the long wire.</td></tr></table><table width="95%" bgcolor="#999999" border="0"><tr><td>When your wire set is complete, attach them to the relay by pushing the short ends of the butt connectors on to the pins in the order below. Look at the bottom of the relay... the pins are usually numbered. If not, use the schematic to locate the correct pins.
- GREEN to Pin#2
- BLUE to Pin# 10
- The LONG END of the ORANGE wire to Pin#6, the 1st jumper to Pin#1, and the 2nd to Pin#11
- The LONG END of the PINK wire to Pin#7, the 1st jumper to Pin#9, and the 2nd to Pin#3.
- Pins 4, 5, and 8 are not used.
The connectors will cause the relay pins to bend out slightly, because they fit rather close together. This is OK, but be careful when pushing them on that you don't accidentally bend a pin over or break it off from forcing them down too hard. All you need is about 1/2 of the pin or so inside the butt connector to be attached well.</td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"> </div></td></tr></table><table width="95%" bgcolor="#999999" border="0"><tr><td>When all the terinals are wired, wrap electrical tape around the connectors, starting at the body of the relay, and stopping just below the tails of the butt connectors, with at least 2 layers. The connectors need to be well insulated, as the unused terminals will be energized when the unit is not running, and will cause a short if they are allowed to touch the box or another bare connector. If you want to get fancy, you can also use the 2" diameter heat-shrinkable tubing in place of the tape.</td></tr><tr><td><div align="center"> </div></td></tr></table><table width="95%" bgcolor="#999999" border="0"><tr><td>Once the relay mod is done, you can install it:
REMOVE THE FUSES and SHUT OFF THE POWER FEED to the shur-pik!!
To locate all the wires needed, you can use the steps below to locate the terminals, then follow the wires until you locate each one that goes to the old relay socket. Remove the wires ONE AT A TIME, and replace them with the new relay wiring. Refer to the diagram if you need to locate the correct TB# terminal strips. The actual terminal numbers are stamped on the terminal strips. The only variation I have noted are: the green wire... it returns to the body of the shur-pik... usually any of the end terminals (#'s 1 and 5) of the strips will work. The other is that on some units, TB3 is mounted on the SIDE of the box instead of the bottom... it doesn't affect the way it's wired, though.

- GREEN to TB3, terminal #1
- BLUE to TB2, terminal #3
- ORANGE to TB3, terminal #4
- PINK to TB3, terminal #2</td><td><div align="center">
</div></td></tr></table><table width="95%" bgcolor="#999999" border="0"><tr><td>After installing, replace the fuses, power on, and check for correct operation. Once the mod is in place and working, the old socket and wires can be either tucked back in the box, or removed, whatever you prefer.</td></tr></table>
</div>

That's it... You now have to remove just 4 wires to replace the whole relay assembly... no soldering required. To give you an idea of the longevity of this mod; when I took the picture of the installed relay (above)I checked the installation date: October 1998. The little stinker has been in there over 4 years without a whimper... and shows very little contact wear. We have some that are on their 6th year... maybe longer.

The wire harnesses are reusable... If you need to rebuild it, remove the tape and wires from the old relay, pop them on to a new one, and re-wrap it with electrical tape... it's ready to go back into the machine. The connectors also eliminate the risk of too much heat being applied to the relay terminals by soldering them, causing melting or distortion of the case and operating components.

[LancerLanesMech]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

EXCELLENT POST GMAN, THAT'LL HELP ME A LOT!!! A MILLION THUMBS UP! 5&amp;6 keep burning up the relay for some reason. Every now &amp; then I have to go smack the relay on the side of the box (it's not fastened in.) I bet rewiring it will tons. I did one other one and tried to make it like the original and i suck at that. Your way is nice.

[jandlcox]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

i have a better design if someone will show me how to post it

[jandlcox]

Re: Sure Pic Problems



Here is a cleaner upgrade for you guys to copy

[LancerLanesMech]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

I had the mother of all problems with my high voltage for the sure pik and the foul lights after our automatic scoring was installed this week. I'm not too good with the electric end of these machines. Anyways, yesterday i turned on 19 &amp; 20 (the end pair) and no power to the sure pik. Checked the breaker and it was fine. The auxillary switch wouldn't even turn it on. The scoring guys had to get in every junction box because the telescores 110v was in there too. What they did was just cap off the wires going to the telescore. Sounds simple enough. We had no problems with power there until they were in that junction box. There's a chance this isn't related, but i think it's a small one. There are 2 white wires coming in and 2 going out. 1 goes to the foul lights, the other into the sure pik chassis. I switched these around and I had power to the lift. I then decided to check the foul lights, no power when turned on. Here's where I get REALLY confused. I disconnected the white wire going to the foul lights at the junction box, leaving it hooked up to the foul lights at the other end and turned on the power and metered it. Somehow the white wire had around 120 volts coming from the foul unit. I had a friend that was helping me and we could not figure why this wire had voltage. He had the idea of grounding it and now the foul lights work. So we got it going, but it's rigged up. Anyone know the electrical end of this that might be able to tell me why this happened, how to fix it the right way, and maybe why this didn't happen to the other lanes?? Also how do I get my hands on one of those boxes in the picture????

[LancerLanesMech]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

Ok, got a mini lesson on AC. It appears that we somehow lost our neutral from one of the whites. If i hook the 2 outgoing whites to the one that is still good I should be ok. I guess it's the same thing as grounding it out.

[jandlcox]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

All you have to do is follow the wires, i can give you a better picture, close up if you want to make one!!

[Cal Clark]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

Ok, this is were I am now. I found the problem with the surepic not turning off. It was an aux switch bad. Now I am back to the original problem that the surepic will not come on when we turn the power on the lane. I switched the relays with the lane next to it and it didn't make any dif. The aux switch will turn the surepic on and off like normal now. Its just a pain in the butt to have to go down there and flip the switch on. Good thing I'm not really busy right now.
Thanks

[Andrew]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

Sounds like a fault in the control circuit.

There are two wires running from the s-pik control box to the machine chassis - the M2 relay. The When the machine is on, it joins the wires, completing the circuit between the 24v transformer and the relay in the s-pik control box.

To test this, use a multi-meter on Voltage-AC setting (preferrably high-voltage, in case you touch 120/240 by mistake). Measure the voltage across the two terminals in the s-pik control box to which the two wires from the machine are connected.

With the machine on (and the s-pik powered, or "ready to run") the reading should be 0V because the two wires should now be connected together at the machine (thanks to the M2 relay being on). If you read 24v at this time, it means the wires running to the machine are broken, or the corresponding C2A connections are faulty, or the wiring in the chassis or the M2 relay itself is faulty. Exclude the machine chassis from the equation by swapping it with another machine (whose s-pik works).

If you read 0V, then turn the machine off and re-test. You should now read 24V (because the wires are no longer connected). If you still read 0V, it means the s-pik control circuit in the control box is faulty. This could be the 24V transformer or the wiring. Check the transformer secondary for 24V, and also follow the wiring through to make sure nothing's come unstuck (you probably already did this).

Another possibility is if you happen to have a s-pik control box in which the saftey switch gets by-passed when in auxillary mode. This is not always the case (it's safer to always run the motor power through the safety switch regardless of whether it's in aux mode - but it depends on the safety switch's rating, etc). Anyway, if your s-pik runs on aux with the safety switch triggered, then the safety switch may be the culprit.

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,
Andrew Kennedy.

[Kat]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

Originally posted by Parts Tracker:
Sounds like a fault in the control circuit.

There are two wires running from the s-pik control box to the machine chassis - the M2 relay. >>snipped<<

.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Be careful, the M2 relay is used for sweep reverse and shortened strike cycle. The M1 (read M1, not M) is used for the ball return circuit.

[TheGMan143]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

That other mod is really nice... if I only had a couple of machines, I might consider it... however, replacing and rewiring 15 control boxes just isn't going to happen.... especially not when ours run as well as they do. We get less than 1 shurpik trouble call a month, and out of those few calls a year, only very few are electrical. That, and convincing the owner that they need to be replaced, when we've been using a wiring mod that costs only pennies to build and runs for years probably won't fly either.

I'd like to update the equipment like that, but since there's no need, it's hard to squeeze the funds out of the owner to do it... and I could see his point... that money could be used elsewhere on something that is more of a problem.

I saved that pic, though... I ever have one that completely 'grenades' on us, I'll probably be using it. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

I have to dig around a bit... somewhere I have info on another mod that was given to me a long time ago, that was pretty much a 'never-fail' unit... it used a T/S contactor instead of a relay to drive the circuit. With how heavy those contacts are, that thing would probably run forever.

[OneWorldSport]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

I am so dang happy i don't have to play with sure-piks anymore [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

[jandlcox]

Re: Sure Pic Problems

that upgrade cost me a grand total of $60.00 to build.