8230 VS 8270/90

[Lampie]

A long time I thought I was the only one liking the the '30 more than the '70/'90 machines...
What are your opinions about this..
We've had AMF VS Brunswick..
Let's fight our own battle!!!

Martin

[Louie_IV]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

I personally think that the 8230 is better. It is simpler in design, and can take a lot more beating. It is more tolerant of homemade fixes (until you get a chance to do it right of course) and it is a very forgiving machine. It has it's drawbacks, but so does the 70/90. There are some things that a 70 has better. For example, the sweep. I also like the idea of everything in the front so it's easier to get to. I also like the elimination of having to count pins. I do not like the very flimsy table, wireways, and finger cells. One cell goes bad, they all quit working. On a 30, 1 respot gets bent up, the rest don't even notice. If there's a bind in a respot cell, you KNOW the problem is in THAT cell, no question. The 8230 also has a chassis that is a lot easier to fix and troubleshoot because it has old fashioned electromechanical technology. No Semiconductor Material or PC Boards that we couldn't begin to fix ourselves without expensive equipment. A 30 is a workhorse and a tank. If a 70 finger cell gets hit by a pin, it has to cry to it's mommy because a pivot pin is bent and none of the cells will close or a wireway gets bent down if pins get jammed in the table and then nothing works. A 30 gets hit by a pin, no problem. I've seen a respot cell work for weeks and it only opens halfway. If a cup is broke and 1/4 of it is missing (top 1/4 of course [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] ), no problem, it sets pins down so smooth, you don't know the difference. On a 70, a pin falls out of a cup and breaks the terminal off of the respot cell in front of it. Now you have to take the whole cell out and replace the grounding screw holder/terminal. If a wire breaks on a 30, 2 screws, the switch is off and and I have the soldering iron in my hand. Plus there is no way a table wire can get hit with a pin if wired correctly. I could keep going...
If a 30 is kept up and PM is done, it can match a 70's FPS. Ask Toon30's who took 70's out to put in 5850's or StuckInThePit who has many times more calls on his 70's than 30's. Now I will admit something, I do enjoy working on the 8270's a little more than the 30's because I think the 8270 is a very neat machine. But I do not think the 8270 is a better machine than the 8230.

Louie [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif[/img]

[Lampie]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

Distributor '30 VS '70 ??

[Ed Fox]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

I personally feel that the 30’s are a much better machine. Not the easiest to crawl around on but as far as being cost effective and low maintenance the 30 wins hands down!

The 70 has to many design flaws...the distributor being the biggest......the shuttle/table runs in a close second place. The rest of it seems to be OK...but then again...you can convert a 30 over to the rest of the 70 design. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]

JMO

Charlie [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

ps. they both suck when compared to a “B” machine

[ModelTech]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

IMHO...

Of the AMF machines, I do like the '30 better. Tough, and made to last FOREVER. You can get a pretty bad cut on a weldment edge (in my case workman's comp STILL hasn't paid the hospital off yet...), the pit is filthy, you can absolutely RUIN your clothes working on/in them, but FPS...well...

I love the LOOK of the '70. I love the sweep, and 20 pin storage up top, and LOVE the 7 second strike cycle. I think it's cool to watch run, and maybe that's why I wanted to build that model, but I also love the A-2. I built a model of that, too. That's a tank, too, and when it's well maintained, the A-2 is one of the best running machines in the industry. It's all a matter of taste. Some like Mopar, others like Fords. Some like GM. I like all three, and have no preference. AMF, Bruswick, Odin, Bowl-Mor, Mendes (Qubica), they all set pins. They all work well when maintained well.

No one should berate another for having a preference. I happen to LOVE the 8230. It's just the neatest contraption to work on. When I worked on A-2's for a number of years, I loved THAT machine as well. Now here's where some might not agree with me. When Brunswick made the GS machine, it was NOT (IMHO) an improvement. I have no idea why they want to put the A-2 "out to pasture". As I understand it, the GS machine has a LOT of plastic parts that break. The 8270 was SUPPOSED to be an improvement over the '30, but the sweep assembly and the speed of the thing are the only noticeable improvements I've noted. The pit (except for the cushion weldment) is identical. Can't improve that, can they? Gotta admit, though, the A-2's shaker board's a damn good idea. It's kinda neat the way the ball goes under the cushion, too.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is I love PINSETTING machines. No preference as to brand name, it's whatever I'm working on at the time...

Doug

[DetroitSignal]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

I like the 8230 a lot more than the 70/90.

The 30 is indeed a TANK and takes the pounding well. One thing that dosent is the sweep, but oh well. The table operates smooth, and the respot cells are a hell of a lot better than those damn flimsy scissors on the 70/90. Yes, we all wish the 30 had 20 pin table capacity, but you cant get everything perfect the 1st time [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] .

The 70/90 distributor.......was a 3 martini lunch when they designed it. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif[/img]

My 2 cesnts.

[stan]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

Originally posted by Lampie:

What are your opinions about this..
We've had AMF VS Brunswick..
Let's fight our own battle!!!

Martin

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Like there's any question which one is superior? Obviously AMF. My bias is that every (I mean every) Brunswick house I've been in the machines are poorly maintained and at the newest, A-2s. Never have seen any GSXs, but plastic bowling machines don't sound that long lasting.

[amfpinboy]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

Mr. Fox, Have you lost your mind? I had almost twenty years on 30's. I wouldn't want to have 48 30's that were 40 yrs. old.
I remember broken sweep studs in the middle of a league and crushed respot cells that HAD to be replaced. Let's not forget dist. head castings and toggles. What about the lower ball lift shaft that won't come out (or go back in) and the chaser can't make it work. " BALL DOORS " !!
(Ed, the deck spray is great stuff. TNX.)

[Louie_IV]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

amfpinboy...You must have worked on Vertical Ball Lifts. They can be a pain! You must have had a "bad batch" of 30's. I've seen those 30 houses where the previous mechanics (or so called) didn't take care of the machines AT ALL. They used duck tape and bailing wire to fix them. And they grabbed a hammer when something was bent. Absolutely NO PM. When you come into a place like this, you are going to have problems like you described. A center like that can be revived, but it takes MANY years. I'm not saying you are the one that did that, I'm saying it might have been like that before you got there. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]

Louie [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif[/img]

[TheGMan143]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

I was pretty much 'raised' on 82/70s, but I will give a '30 credit... referring to the post above, a 30 CAN be made to run (and run pretty damn good)with baling wire, duct tape, a big hammer, and very little preventive maintenance. They still have their little quirks and problems, but they're pretty solid. '70s are a bit more technical and delicate... they can still be forced to run, but will eventually blow up if not maintained well.

I really don't like ANY machine if it's not running right. '70s would be my preference, since they're what I'm used to... but I don't mind '30s, either.

[Louie_IV]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

Originally posted by TheGMan143:
a 30 CAN be made to run (and run pretty damn good)with baling wire, duct tape, a big hammer, and very little preventive maintenance.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What machine can you like better than that?? [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]

Louie [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif[/img]

[amfpinboy]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

Louie, Don't get me wrong, there is still a place for the 30's. They are the Sherman tanks of machines. But, when you compair the amount of moving parts the 70 wins.
There are sixteen roller wheels per cell on a 30. Lets not forget toggles and counters. How about broken dist. tracks or worn tracks around the #10 cup. The 30's sweep carriage was another soft point. If some yahoo nails a sweep there would be some damage almost everytime. On a 70, the sweep absorbs the energy of a hit and keeps on ticking.
My favorite mach. is a 82/70 MP. I work on some 90 XL's, but the MP's seem to run without too many electrical problems.

[Ed Fox]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

Originally posted by amfpinboy:
Mr. Fox, Have you lost your mind? I had almost twenty years on 30's. I wouldn't want to have 48 30's that were 40 yrs. old.
I remember broken sweep studs in the middle of a league and crushed respot cells that HAD to be replaced. Let's not forget dist. head castings and toggles. What about the lower ball lift shaft that won't come out (or go back in) and the chaser can't make it work. " BALL DOORS " !!
(Ed, the deck spray is great stuff. TNX.)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ball doors...don’t miss those. They were a PITA...all though...kind of looks like the same idea as a PBL(ball drops with gravity). Maybe.... just maybe....with a better belt and a paddle conversion those 30 degree ball lifts wouldn’t of been so bad. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
As far as the toggles go....the pin wheel conversion gives the 30 a whole new life. Ask your friendly AMF sales rep about them...they will pretend like they have NO idea what you’re talking about! LMAO!!!!!!!

Lets not forget the MK boards and the creative pin counters and with the proper scoring installed(not “B”) you can eliminate the K&amp;L.

Long live the tirdeys!

Charlie [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

[Louie_IV]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

amfpinboy...Yes I agree totally on all of those points. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] 30's are tanks, 70's are neater, cleaner, quieter, faster, and more delicate. That's about the facts of it. I suppose anything else if a matter of opinion and preference. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]

Louie [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif[/img]

[Hitemlong]

Re: 8230 VS 8270/90

We just removed 82/30 and replaced them with 70's. This was a move because of the problems with respot cells, distributors and ball calls. The machines had been mantained in perfect working order for many years until the man retired. Then finding someone to keep them running was tough. We now have many parts for the 30's to sell. Dist., Chassis, Motors, Ball lIfts. If you are interested E-mail me a kegeler@comcast.net.