82/90 table and respot cells

[DetroitSignal]

First thing I have to mention for those of you who might think the following may be related to gripper protection switch...there is no gripper protection switch on these machines.

Anyway, worked a stepladder final at a private two-laner this evening and had about 12 spot calls on lane #1. The problem happened when the ball would hit the head pin or another pin straight-on, driving it into the bottom of the table casting....this would cause the table to vibrate and the respot cells to close NOT EVEN A 1/16 OF AN INCH......table would run down to respot, BUT the cells would not close to feel for the pins....machine sweeps off spare and returns to 2nd ball. What the hell is happening here?! ANY advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Rep]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

Did ya check the pawl spring and gap adjustment? Off the top of my head that's about all I can think of. I'll ponder it some more and see if I can come up with some other ideas

[ModelTech]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

I don't have my manual handy, but it sounds like on of the "master" links is bent. Pins can do a number on the "short link" pivot pins as well. Hard to see, unless you get at the right angle. Look for bent "carb" links, too...

The "stop" screw at the base of the pawl can be adjusted (Two turns shorter)to get a tighter grip on the pins, but that's a drastic measure.

Just tryin' ta help... [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

Doug

[Louie_IV]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

Originally posted by ModelTech:
The "stop" screw at the base of the pawl can be adjusted (Two turns shorter)to get a tighter grip on the pins, but that's a drastic measure.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, just to clear things up for myself. Isn't the pawl the springy thing that drives the "Batman" cam to open and close the fingers? I believe Doug is talking about what I call the "Gooseneck" arm that is used to open the fingers on a strike and also contains the stop screw that Doug was talking about. Am I right? That's what I have always thought was the pawl.

Louie

[ModelTech]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

Yep, Louie,

You're right. "Shifter cam link" is what it's called. One word of caution...

There's a fine line between adjustments on the respot rod, and the shifter cam link stop adjustment. But that's for ALL the cells, as each individual cell has to be right, as well. Boy, ya wanna talk about time consuming...of course you're talking about the 8290, but I think the operation's basically the same...adjusting one thing too far, throws a whole bunch of things off elsewhere.

The manual tells you the adjustments to make on the shifter cam link, but also look for a bent "2594" link, or a pivot pin bent somewhere. That can bind up the whole lot.

But, after rereading your post, with the fingers not closing, it sounds like something is loose. Carb link off somewhere?

Keep us posted! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

Doug

[Lampie]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

Take a look at your table gearbox, if it is only slightly loose from the frame it's impossible to do the pubic hair adjusment with the respot rod at the nananana batman cam.
Mostly this happens on machines with a shaft PLATE instead of a shaft bearing on the table shaft at the motor side.

Martin

[talkintrash]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

Originally posted by JOE C.:
First thing I have to mention for those of you who might think the following may be related to gripper protection switch...there is no gripper protection switch on these machines.

Anyway, worked a stepladder final at a private two-laner this evening and had about 12 spot calls on lane #1. The problem happened when the ball would hit the head pin or another pin straight-on, driving it into the bottom of the table casting....this would cause the table to vibrate and the respot cells to close NOT EVEN A 1/16 OF AN INCH......table would run down to respot, BUT the cells would not close to feel for the pins....machine sweeps off spare and returns to 2nd ball. What the hell is happening here?! ANY advice would be greatly appreciated.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is it a steel table or aluminum?

[DetroitSignal]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

70 style aluminum table. All carb links are on and tight. Lemme shed some light on why this may have happened in the first place. Those of you who followed my posts about a month ago know that I had to lower the entire machine about 1/8 of an inch and reset all the spotting adjustments. Did I possibly lose my respot adjustments and not know it???

[talkintrash]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

Originally posted by JOE C.:
70 style aluminum table. All carb links are on and tight. Lemme shed some light on why this may have happened in the first place. Those of you who followed my posts about a month ago know that I had to lower the entire machine about 1/8 of an inch and reset all the spotting adjustments. Did I possibly lose my respot adjustments and not know it???

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It could be possible, especially if you had to adjust the spot rod and/or the table tie rods. If you have a manual, I would go through it step by step and do/redo the table adjustments (keep in mind to inspect the table for broken/damaged components...replace as necessary).

[Pindecked]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

I'll toss one out here...I had this once &amp; it drove me cookoo. It just sounds like a bind somewhere.

After a hard search, I found that the wireway was bent a RCH. &amp; was rubbing on the table casting- just in front of the 2 pin cell.
When the fingers opened fully(to spot pins), the wireway was jamming there,but they( fingers) stayed open under stress. As soon as any movement happened( table starting down to feel for pins on the next cycle) ,the fingers would partially close,causing the fingers to not continue closing around the pin necks.A close look will reveal a shiny spot where they're rubbing.

Also,as you say,if a pin flew up &amp; whacked the table,the fingers would jump closed a little-causing the same thing.
Another thought...maybe one carb linkage somewhere is adjusted too short-causing the same thing...fingers are fully opened,but one is opened too far.Again,fingers are open,but with stress &amp; any movement causes them to go closed a little.
Or again,a bent pivot stud...or a wireway bent down -rubbing on a 'bolt' in the finger ass'y that the carb. link attaches to...or a bent 'bolt' in the wireway that the back of the carb. link attaches to..

maybe a snapped butterfly link (on the left side of the table-looking from the back).

I've also seen a sweep arm tickle the wireway at the 7 pin when it runs back..causes goofy things,but,shouldn't be a factor here.

Funny...28 years on these thing &amp; I don't know the proper name for parts ......but then,AMF has named almost everything a "link" or "lever" :p

Just a couple ideas...good luck.

[ModelTech]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

Good one, Pindecked!

"Wireway" is what it's called, in some manuals...the one that runs from the 1-7 pins, is what I call the "master" link...the smaller one that runs from the 1-10, is what I call the "slave" link, and the "tie links" are in betweeen. My terminology's not the greatest, but those links (on the Via machines) were CONSTANTLY getting bent, having to remove them, and take 'em to the bench vise, and eyeball 'em straight.

Also we found bent pivot pins (near the 1 pin and near the 7 pin) would bugger up the respotting, either causing "banana hangers", or the pins would slip out, and be swept away...

Table jams and pins hitting the links (in my experience) ARE the major cause of bent links and wireways...one more thing to watch for, 6lb ball thrown by a 2yr old stops after knocking over the 1 &amp; 5, and STOPS under the table, table comes down, >crunch<...more bent stuff [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif[/img] ...

Been there [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

Doug

[Kat]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

There should be a spring that goes from the bellcrank to a sheet metal bracket that's bolted to the side of the table casting. Make sure it's there.

Two things happen here, either the post on the bellcrank gets broken or the bracket gets bent over.

[Bill LeMieux]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

Joe, Your post suggests that you actually saw the cells NOT close right? Did they NOT close AT ALL, did they close half way, did they close all the way but not not pick up the pins, or something else? Specifics are important for diagnostics. You said "But the cells would not close to feel for pins", so my guess is that they didn't even try to close. If that's the case then the first thing I would look at is to see if the pawl is hitting smack dab in the middle of the "Batman Cam", as others like to call it, as apposed to sliding into the lower notch of the cam to close the fingers.
First, make sure that there is a space between the Pawl and the outer most part of the cam. Open and close the cells manually and make sure the pawl doesn't move. If it does, adjust the respot rod so the pawl just clears the cam. Then, crank the table down about 25%, give or take, and close the cells your "1/16th of an inch" and see how close the pawl comes to hitting the cam dead on. The pawl should be pointing downward ever so slightly so as to go into the bottom "V" of the cam to close the cells. If the pawl is too high it will either hit the "point" of the cam affecting nothing, or even go into the top "V" of the cam wanting to open the already open cells.
If this is what's happening, then bend the pawls spring holder down just a bit to get the pawl into proper alignment. If that's not the problem, give us some more info and we'll all try to help you further. But let us know either way K? Bill

[DetroitSignal]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

That's right Bill, I actually witnessed the cells not closing. I even tried closing the cells manually when the table was at the height where they would normally closed, but couldnt do it. I am trying to set a date to go over there and fix the problem.

[TheGMan143]

Re: 82/90 table and respot cells

If the cells would not close by hand at the correct 'respot height', I'd put my money on a bind in a pawl or shifter bind rather than a drive problem... although I did have something similar to this happen which DID involve the drive links. I had an intermittent problem on the respot cells, which was driving me nuts... the cells sometimes wouldn't close (losing pins or not picking), other times they wouldn't open all the way (holding pins or causing spotting problems), and most of the time they worked perfectly. I finally decided to tear into the table, and just by accident (if I recall correctly, I banged my head on the rods), I found that the front pivot on the table(where the spot/respot drive rods attach) has bushings or bearings in it... the bearing was dry as a bone, and cracked apart, and the pivot was able to rock side to side. If it fell too far to one side, it would get jammed against the front of the table casting, and the cells would not move... by machine or by hand. Replacing the pivot assembly cured the problem (after which I had to UNDO all of the other adjustments we tried, which were now wrong)