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  • table no feely

    table won't feel for pins. checked TAP, cams and switches. Replaced gripper protection sw twice. Chassis has been changed twice also. Any suggs?

    ok got the table to feel for pins again--was just loose TAP, however, now there is no time delay between sweep dropping and table feeling for pins....eh?

  • #2
    Re: table no feely

    Take the simple stuff first...

    I'm going to assume that if you lift TA1 manually with the machine at zero, the table will pick up and respot pins...

    Open up the front wireway, and throw a jumper across the GP switch terminals, to completely eliminate the switch and wiring to it. The GP wires will be the two yellow wires coming from the table cable, and attaching to the TAC board in the front wireway at the lower left and lower right terminals. Try running 1st-ball cycle, see if it feels for pins. If it does, your table cable, table wiring, or table cable socket has a problem.

    If not, check your sweep camswitches (if you didn't already)... the sweep cams start the table run time delay, and therefore control the table run on spot/respot.

    Check the machine-side C2A plug terminals at:
    Top row (Row 4), 'DD' and 3rd Row (Row 2), 'M', which are for the GP switch input to the chassis. I have a diagram on here if you need it to locate the correct pins.

    Check your OS switch and wiring... certain chassis will automatically bypass table run and leave the sweep at 66 if it's malfunctioning.

    I'm willing to bet that it'll be in the table cable or the table AMP plug... they're the most common causes of the 'no feel' problem.
    <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: table no feely

      appreciate the info gman. Can you give me any more info on the time delay deal? You say it is initiated by sweep? I have noticed on this particular lane there's an intermittent sweep coast, only at 66 deg.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: table no feely

        ok this problem is getting worse--- i saw this happen; ball hits cushion, pit stops running and back to the original table won't feel for pins. I'm sure it's a short of some kind--where to start looking?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: table no feely

          Now you have a different problem...

          First of all, sweep drift is usually caused by a weak motor brake or a VERY loose gearbox... pretty much rule out the gearbox, since even AMF will tell you that if a gearbox gets too much 'play' in it on the table, that you should swap table to sweep.

          Look at the carbon brushes in the motor, and look at your lower contacts on the S-contactor, and the pins on the C1 plug. The brushes in the motor (and the shims as well) make the motor 'tight' enough to hold the gearbox from drifting when it's not running... the electric brake on the motors is only a dynamic brake. It STOPS the motor, then releases it... it does not hold the motor stopped, so if the brake isn't kicking in because the lower contactor pads are worn, dirty, or broken... or the C1 pins aren't getting the power to the brake; the motor will 'spin down' from momentum instead of stopping. Bad or weak motor capacitors can also cause a problem like that. If any of the terminals on the motor caps have residue or little blue or white crystals on them ('pus', as we call it), the electrolyte is leaking and the caps aren't functioning like they should... replace ALL of them, not just the ones that are leaking... they're usually around the same age, and if one fails, the others may not be far behind.

          Now for your other problem:

          Check anything dealing with POWER. It sounds like the machine is momentarily losing power from the shock of the ball hitting the cushion, indicating a loose connection somewhere. If the power 'blinks' off for a second, it's just like resetting the machine with the BEC circuit breaker... cycle and pin memory are lost, which could cause your no-cycle condition. Usual causes of a 'blinking' machine are:

          AM&amp;C plug (usually on the side or front of the wireway, in the area of the ball return downrails) is loose or broken. With autoscoring, this doesn't always apply, but check it anyway... if it's loose or shorted, it can cause other problems as well.

          RusselStoll plug (or it's wire connections) are loose or corroded.

          C1 plug (which feeds power in and out of the chassis), or it's individual pins; are loose, burned, or broken.

          C2A plug (which handles BEC box wiring) can also cause this problem... the BEC circuit breaker comes in on this block.

          (rare) TS terminal strip wiring is weak or broken from vibration or from being pulled on when connecting and disconnecting the C blocks.

          BEC box circuit breaker internal contacts are weak enough to be momentarily 'bounced open' by the shock of the ball, or it's connection wiring is loose.

          (uncommon) Break in the wiring from the BEC box to the front end of the machine, caused by vibration.

          Hope that helps... Keep us posted.
          <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: table no feely

            Solardanl, what is your chassis and scoring setup? The way he explains it, seems to me that he's not losing power to the whole machine, just the pit motor. Double check the plug to make sure nothing is loose, or if it's hardwired check the terminals &amp; wires. I've had a few of those break. Also could be a bad pit motor toggle switch in the BE control box.
            If it was the whole machine, could also be in the Elco plug. I don't have a lot of experience with C-23 plugs but if you have those instead of Elcos I'm sure if there was a bad connection or they were loose, that could also cause you to lose power.
            As far as the delay problem.... the first thing that pops in my head is about your coasting sweep. You said the table felt for pins but there was no delay. Did the machine interlock at this point? If so the sweep probably coasted far enough to trip SC on your cams. That will cause an interlock every time. I had that on 2 machines this week. If no interlock, could be a scoring setup depending on what you have, if any. Also, Gman, who was posting about delay problems having to do with the 5v (in omega tek board i believe)? Could be there but that's the first I've heard of that, I'm a bit green on the electronics yet, I'm studying though, so whatever info I can get, send away.
            Charley
            82-70's SS Chassis Omega-Tek w/expanders
            2009 Qubica scoring 3QT's and 6 box.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: table no feely

              Is there delay control in the M2? Also I wouldn't rule out the table cable plug for no feel, it can look ok, but make certain it is solid and pins, sockets &amp; the plug itself are ok. Keep us posted.
              Charley
              82-70's SS Chassis Omega-Tek w/expanders
              2009 Qubica scoring 3QT's and 6 box.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: table no feely

                Here it is, no idea if this is related or not though.
                Originally posted by Parts Tracker:
                Whenever I see a problem involving "...a few minutes later..." or similar, invariably it involves the power supply (in this case, the 5v regulator I gather) - because of heat. You can get some really amusing(!) time-related problems.

                I have also had a few "...half a second later..." problems with Omega teks - and those problems are usually to do with dry joints ('cos a dry joint is like a very small capacitor - and the chips on omega teks being mostly CMOS are happy to use a dry solder joint as a nice time delay module!).

                Time-related electrical faults can be fun ;-).

                Andrew.
                <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
                Charley
                82-70's SS Chassis Omega-Tek w/expanders
                2009 Qubica scoring 3QT's and 6 box.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: table no feely

                  Here's what it's been doing all day: when first powered on(after awhile), table feels for pins normally, 2nd ball spots pins normally. Then after hitting cycle again, sweep drops but it won't feel for pins. If i hit pgm zero, pit stops like normal but won't come back on and no cycle start (after running sweep back up to 0). I saw the one time a ball hit cushion and pit stop--wouldnt say it lost power though. I don't have any scoring, but have mp chassis.

                  Spent some time checking sweep cam switch wiring--waste of time-- looked at capacitors, c1 &amp; c2a pins, A&amp;MC plug, decided to quit for the day. So I remove the jumper in the wireway that i put on GP wires earlier and ...machine seems to working. The time delay is also back to normal.

                  This machine has done this to me couple times now, and I've yet to determine the real prob. So if you all remember anything that might prove helpful, feel free to suggest it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: table no feely

                    Put the two G P wires together in the wireway. Thursday night the two night chasers forgot about the GP sw. and the machine was down for over an hour before they thought out the problem. They had it back up by 7:05 and told the desk people that it was ready to bowl. The desk people had already told the teams to go home because a motor had burned out and we didn't have another motor.
                    Friday, I asked the desk man why he would say that and he told me that he couldn't think of anything else to tell them.
                    The G M will be back on Tuesday, I let him deal with the desk people.
                    &quot;Gun control is the policy of tyrants&quot;
                    Rep. Rob Bishop (R-UT)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: table no feely

                      Originally posted by solardanl:
                      [QB]Here's what it's been doing all day: when first powered on(after awhile), table feels for pins normally, 2nd ball spots pins normally. Then after hitting cycle again, sweep drops but it won't feel for pins. If i hit pgm zero, pit stops like normal but won't come back on and no cycle start (after running sweep back up to 0). QB]
                      <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Been a while for me with MP's but I'm thinking it's not something you need to hit program zero for. Still sounds like a gripper protection problem. It's getting the signal to cycle, sweep is stopping at guard, therefore SB is working. Next is for the table to start, that's not happening so there is where we need to look. To be honest, I was a bit confused with the way you worded the last post as far as how you were checking it. For instance, how many cycles did it do before the table stopped working? Sounded like one to me. There was a jumper in the channel for the protection switch at this time? It's working after removing the jumper now so I still think the problem is lurking there somewhere. Table runs fine using TA1? Was table contactor energized but not moving? Need to know these things to determine where to look so we know if it's in the low voltage control, or in the high voltage. If the contactor wasn't energized I would still look at where the table cable plugs in.

                      Gman, about what you said about motors.... Where are the carbon brushes, and what do you look for as far as what condition they're in. And what is the proper way to shim the motors??
                      Charley
                      82-70's SS Chassis Omega-Tek w/expanders
                      2009 Qubica scoring 3QT's and 6 box.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: table no feely

                        Farley, I appreciate your patience. By the time I post here I'm usually desperate and in a hurry lol. Ok the problem returned, apparently right after I left last night. The machine will go through a respot cycle only once right after being turned on.

                        The jumper wire was in the wireway per gman's suggestion to rule out the gp wiring.

                        Don't have to worry bout the carbon brushes. Will check the shims when i get a chance.

                        Checking on the rest of your questions, brb.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: table no feely

                          Of course, it's working again, now that i have your attention. Will get back to ya , i dont expect it to last the night. thanks again

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: table no feely

                            Originally posted by solardanl:
                            Farley, I appreciate your patience. By the time I post here I'm usually desperate and in a hurry lol. Ok the problem returned, apparently right after I left last night. The machine will go through a respot cycle only once right after being turned on.

                            The jumper wire was in the wireway per gman's suggestion to rule out the gp wiring.

                            Don't have to worry bout the carbon brushes. Will check the shims when i get a chance.

                            Checking on the rest of your questions, brb.
                            <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I take it you still have a coasting problem on the sweep??
                            Charley
                            82-70's SS Chassis Omega-Tek w/expanders
                            2009 Qubica scoring 3QT's and 6 box.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: table no feely

                              I should have been a bit more specific about a few things... National motor heads have 4 springloaded carbon brushes in the tail end, contained in a casting. These run against a plate that looks very similar to a brake disc on a car.

                              To check them, you just take the 2 screws out of the casting, carefully remove the springs and the casting, and the carbons will be sitting right there on the disc. They should be pretty fat... 1/8" is about the thinnest we let them get before replacing them.

                              If you have GE/Westinghouse, AO Smith, (and others) you do not have carbon motor brushes.

                              Shimming the motor isn't hard, on a National... on some of the others, it may be trickier or easier, I'm not sure, since we have all Nationals.
                              <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

                              Comment

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