Sweep and Table run independantly ONLY

[rcflyboyjr]

Ok. Heres a winner for ya. This machine has been giving 3 head mechanics and an amf tech heartburn.

- - 82-70 b's

Run the sweep or table independantly by cams in front and they work smooth. The second the table and sweep try to run simultanous they both freeze and growl till overload. So far heres what we have done.

-replaced Master Breaker on control box.
-replaced circuit breaker on main power panel
-replaced both sweep and table capacitors
-put gearbox and motors from working machines on
-replaced Sweep reverse switch
-replace sweep run switch
- replaced both capacitor resistors on capacitor tray
-traced every wire from C1 Plug to correct terminals in wire channel
-replaced chassis with one from a working machine
-tightened all power supply terminals from Main plug, main plug receptical, both motor plugs
-verified voltages on each pin of both motor pugs and main power plug
-checked continuity on both motor plugs for shorts.
-Had electrician trim circit breaker panel leads to ensure good common and hot lead connections.

Any one have any ideas.... this machine was working fine one day then the next it toasted the 7-10 pick off realy used in conjunction with the omni board and Accuscore.

from then on its been pure h*!! ....

Not much hair left after this one. Just as we think oh this is it ..... still no luck.

Thanks

[Alan Meyers]

Re: Sweep and Table run independantly ONLY

A couple questions first. When you say everything growls and then overloads , do the motors just trip or does the entire machine trip ( loose power ) ? I will assume , until you reply , that the main breaker trips. Have you read the voltage while the machine was " growling " and tripped ? I would try to run the machine from a different power source , like a wall outlet , then see what happens. My place is 30 years old and once in a great while ( 5 or 6 years ) I will "lose" a neutral wire on the incoming power supply. It's never done exactly what you're are describing , but it can do strange things. I've made a cord with a Russel Stohl plug at one end and a regular male plug at the other to be able to run the machine from a different power source. All you really need to do is get , at minimum , a 12 guage extension cord and put the proper terminals on one end and attacth them in the wireway to the correct terminal strips and plug into a wall outlet and fire her up. Good luck.

[Alan Meyers]

Re: Sweep and Table run independantly ONLY

Just don't forget to disconnect the original power supply before hooking up to a new one.

[ewen]

Re: Sweep and Table run independantly ONLY

rcflyboyjr,
A couple of questions for you.
You state this is an 82-70 "b" pinspotter.
Later in the post you mention the omni board.
The omni board was designed to replace the 5 boards in a "c" or solid state chassis. (The "b" chassis has a large number of relays and a stepper, or a circuit board to replace the stepper). Which chassis do you have ?

When you run the table and sweep together , are you cycling the machine , or still running the machine with the cam levers? What exactly is tripping? , the motor klixon , the master cb , or the panel cb ? Have you checked the SC & TB cam microswitches and wiring -- since these provide a "ground " to run the motor circuits.

Have you disconnected the A&MC box ( and jumped pins 21 & 22 ) to run the machine ?

As stated in an post above, make sure the incoming power source has the ability to supply enough amps. A bad panel breaker, toasted wiring(does the wire have a copper color , or is it discolored ?) burned pins on the RS plug can all reduce the amps. You might get a good reading on the voltage, however the source might not be capable of supplying enough amps.

Good luck, continue to post until you have solved the problem. Mark

[THE HAMMER]

Re: Sweep and Table run independantly ONLY

Are your sweep arms catching the table after 1st gaurd?. The sweep could be jamming against the table causing both motors to over load. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]

"NOTHING HITS LIKE A HAMMER"

[wb8yjf]

Re: Sweep and Table run independantly ONLY

THere was a "B" conversion from Omega-Tek a while back. Due to lack of sales he canned it. Maybe that is why the reference to the omni-board? I only know of one house with real B chassis around here, and they are slowly replacing them with the "normal" 5 board chassis...

GOOD LUCK!
Jon [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/usflag.jpg[/img]

[John_Galt]

Re: Sweep and Table run independantly ONLY

I'm betting on amperage being the problem.

When a combo motor starts it takes up to 30 amps for a split second. A 5 or 6 amp rated klixon allows this, but only for a split second.

With a needle multimeter, maybe you could check the starting amperage and see if it's more than 30.

That's all I can suggest for now...
C

[felix]

Re: Sweep and Table run independantly ONLY

Masking Unit switch?( I say this cause it happenned that the masking unit has caused these problems). [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] Managers control sitch? [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] Off spot switch? If all else fails ,open the wire way up and use whatever kind of leaf blower you have to blow out channel(for a hair wire acrossed terminals or dropped nut & or pins from the brain box.)
Any one have any ideas.... this machine was working fine one day then the next it toasted the 7-10 pick off realy used in conjunction with the omni board and Accuscore.
A&MC is Another..

[rcflyboyjr]

Re: Sweep and Table run independantly ONLY

Well actually I am not sure. I assumed it was the B machine. My previous experience was with the 82-70C's. So maybe you can help be figure out what they are... LOL
The dist has the long support arm and the cross support over the pit area is butted up close to the table.

As for what trips.. Well it started out as just the motors tripping the klixon. About once a week the circuit breaker in the breaker panel tripped.

we blew out all the wire ways and manually checked each terminal for any shorts or debris.

We tried running from the power on the machine next to this one. (The RS power cords actually reached...)

The chassis that are on these machines look very simular to the ones on my 82-70c's . The omni boards were added about 5 years ago.

When the "gowling" occurs is ANY time the sweep and table are attempting to opperate at the same time. I have tried cycling the machine and letting it carry though the cycle and opperating the cycle manually by activating the cams.

Definition of the "growl" - Sounds exactly like when a motor is attempting to start on the run windings. Like a centrifugal switch is bad.

And yes they are good. Remember these gearboxes and motors came from a machine that was running flawless. (Thats why we put them on this machine. LOL)

I will definately check the grounds on the micro switches. I guess I missed that part in the wiring diagram.

I will also try the amc pin 21/22 jumper.

No sorry the sweeps not binding we hand cranked both SW and TB on both old and new gearboxes to make sure no binding.

The sweep runs great to guard.. Table comes down to get pins and as soon as ta2 is tripped and sweep is supposed to clear deck... both motors start growling...

They didnt have an amp clamp to put on the source/table/sweep power plugs so I couldnt get AMP draw/spike readings. Not to mention I was sure what they should be anyway LOL

I am going by graingers Monday morning to get them one though.. LOL its the only thing left other than the 2 new ideas that I can think of.

Any other ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Ill keep you posted on what we find out.

thanks bunches
JR

[Lampie]

Re: Sweep and Table run independantly ONLY

Are you sure that the capicitors and resistors are wired correctly, maybe somebodyone did change a capicitor before you and put the wires back on the wrong connectors?
Ahh didd't do it ahh wasn't there maybe my brother did it....

It looks like the two circuits are connected somehow and that place should be the first place to take closer look.

Good luck

Martin

[ewen]

Re: Sweep and Table run independantly ONLY

The table and sweep motors have common connections at TS 1A1 ( which is supposed to have a jumper wire to TS 17). Sweep motor capacitor 2 ,and table capacitor 2 have common connections on TS17. The RS neutral ties into TS 17. Maybe a problem with the wire between RS plug and TS17 ? Or the jumper from TS1A1 to TS17.
Again, I would isolate the machine from the scoring and the A& MC box. You can either jump the A&MC pins 21+22, or plug in the A&MC box from the opposite machine.
Have you watched the table and sweep contactors in the chassis to see if they are fully energized when they are running the motors? If they are only partially energized, the motors would not get full amperage .
Mark

[Dutch]

Re: Sweep and Table run independantly ONLY

I’m not familiar with the omni board. Is the SWP rev (7-10 pick off) relay external? If it is, check the SWP rev circuit that fried. If the wrong relay was installed or other damage occurred in the circuit (like the relay socket) it could be causing an excessive power drain.