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  • Vantage BE motors

    I reecently purchased a few vantage BE motors and, to my dismay, found a few problems with them.
    1.) The standard key is too big for the motor shaft
    2.) The motors run VERY HOT

    I see the Vantage BE gearboxes have vented caps that the regular national motors do not have. Is there a part number for this cap? I have no desire, nor the funding, to have to purchase entire motor assemblies at $850 a piece when I don't need the gearbox. Or is there a way to make these motors run cooler so I'm not poppin the thermal overloads every other day? And is there a different PN for the keys for these shafts? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

  • #2
    Re: Vantage BE motors

    We had a couple 'aftermarket' motors like that... I don't think they were Vantage, though.

    The shaft keys are a problem... if you use a narrower shaft key (most likly metric) in your original gearboxes (which are usually SAE), the 'slop' in the narrow key beats the heck out of itself and the keyway in the gearbox... there's enough play in it that it slams into the side of the keyway every time the motor starts. You have two options... modify the shaft of the motor, or modify the shaft key. We went with modding the shaft... I took a die grinder and widened the keyway a bit, then finished with a thin flat file so it matched the original keys. The other way requires you to mark the depth that the key goes into the gearbox keyway, then 'thinning' the other end of the key until it fits the motor.

    I would recommend cutting the shaft... that way ALL your shaft keys fit ALL the motors. If not, one day someone will change out a new motor with an old one and use the modified key, which will then have a gap and will beat up on the motor shaft.

    For buying motors... another route you could take is to contact a company that reconditions or resells used bowling equipment. They will usually have original motor heads for sale... and gearboxes if you need them, too.

    A third option is to have your failed heads rewound and reconditioned... if there is a reputable place that does this locally, you may want to look into it. It's a bit cheaper than buying a motor, but not by much in some cases.

    As for the heat problem... Our aftermarket motors ran OK... no heat problems. I'll throw out a couple guesses, though...

    I never really dug into one, but Vantage gearboxes may have different gear ratios than the original ones (is anyone familiar with 'V' gearboxes?)... using a lighter motor on heavier gearing will cause a lot of heat.

    If the motor isn't wired correctly or the centrifugal switch isn't working right, it could be running on the start windings... that will also cause overheating.

    Start capacitors of the wrong ratings cause motor overheat, too. Did your paperwork with the new motors mention changing out starting caps?

    How do the motors run when they're not under load? Pull a table plug, connect a 'bare' motor to it and lay it on the catwalk, then power up and cycle the machine... hang on to it or have someone hold it in place with their foot... it will jump when it starts. Let it run a while and see how much heat builds up. If there's considerably less heat, I'd say the motor is too weak to handle your gearboxes. If it still seems to overheat, it could be an electrical problem.
    <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

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    • #3
      Re: Vantage BE motors

      Last year I bought two vantage BE motors. I've been running one for almost a year. It too runs extremely hot. Never had a problem with it, even with heavy lineage on it. It's too hot to the touch! It runs with no other problems though. I've stayed away from vantage for the most part but felt compelled to try a motor. Don't think I'll buy any more.

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      • #4
        Re: Vantage BE motors

        I assume you have National gearboxes.
        Originally posted by geminix:
        1.) The standard key is too big for the motor shaft!
        <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I will submit a suggestion for a print change on this. It does use an SAE key, not a metric key.
        2.) The motors run VERY HOT
        I see the Vantage BE gearboxes have vented caps that the regular national motors do not have. Is there a part number for this cap?

        The part number for the annodized adaptor (attaching to the motor) is V785 502 233-A. It will fit New Vantage and National gearboxes. The part number for the adaptor on the gearbox is V785 502 235, but it is only for the New Vantage gearbox, on page 1f of the Vantage manual. It will not fit a National gearbox.

        I designed the venting of the New Vantage gearbox and motor adaptors. The design went into production for 233/234 motors as well, since the same adaptor is used for both types.
        The Matsushida motor is not vented the same way as GE/Westinghouse motors, so the holes have no effect when mated to a National gearbox.

        Nonetheless, as you stated, while the Vantage adaptation of the Westinghouse motor to the National gearbox runs very hot, it does not open the thermal overload, so it does not cause any delay of game.

        Please call me for further discussion of the adaptors. 800-255-7401x229.

        Chad Quella
        VanTech Support

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        • #5
          Re: Vantage BE motors

          i third or fourth that, ive bought 4 chad backend motors, signed by him personally even, [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] have two running (40 lanes), they run hot but have never quit.

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          • #6
            Re: Vantage BE motors

            Thank you for your help.

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            • #7
              Re: Vantage BE motors

              I've said this before..(running hot)And if I'm not wrong, I told Chad that his motor's had less copper windings..But,if I'm wrong then it;s in the head itself(measure and see if youre heads are the same depth that runs on the stator.)?? [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] (less whatever you callit on the inside of the head) [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]
              If at first you don't succeed, try, try, again. Then quit. There's no use being a damn fool about it.&quot; -W.C.Fields

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              • #8
                Re: Vantage BE motors

                Got a v785 502 234 last week. It gets very very hot indeed while operating. Touch it and get burned, phew ! Aren't the wires going to meld this way ?

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                • #9
                  Re: Vantage BE motors

                  There are so many things that can cause a motor to run hot. However, the temperature of the case is not what matters as much as the temperature of the windings. A hotter case could still have a lower temperature winding than that of its counterpart that has a cooler case and hotter windings.

                  The four major things that I can think of that makes a motor run hot is:

                  Of course the cooling system, i.e.…fan &amp; the type material of the casing
                  The type of insulation for the windings
                  The amount of wire in the windings (resistance)
                  Ambient temperature

                  Given that the ambient temperature is the same across the house, what makes Vantage run hotter than an AMF? Part of the answer lies in applying a simple law to determine wattage drawn in relation to watts output (determined by speed and torque). The difference is wattage dissipation in the form of heat.

                  To simplify the calculation I will use the ratings on the motor plate (instead of real measurements) and omit the Power Factor (which can make a difference in performance)

                  Given: both national motors have an output of 1/3 HP which = ~249 watts

                  The simplified formula is: Volts * Amps = Watts

                  AMF = 115 * 4.5 = 517.5 watts drawn
                  Vantage = 115 * 7.1 = 816.5 watts drawn

                  As you can see, every thing over 249 watts is dissipated as heat instead of electrical power.

                  Now to throw a monkey wrench into this hypothesis. The motor from Quality draws even more amps than that of Vantage, but running feels much cooler. One can clearly see that the Quality motor has a much better cooling system. But what really counts is the temperature of the winding and not the case.

                  I’ve always been told…Every 10 Celsius over max rating decreases the life of the motor ½ and Every 10 Celsius under max rating doubles the life of the motor.

                  On a side note…If Vantage motors are National replacements…Why would the key way not be metric? What a pain in the arse!!! At least the Franklin replacements (which I despise) make it where the key fits!!!

                  Triac

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                  • #10
                    Re: Vantage BE motors

                    I have a few myself. Run very hot. No problems though, aside from them being , uh , very hot.
                    The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it which the merely improbable lacks.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Vantage BE motors

                      If I am lucky enough to get a refurbished original National from Stahl's, they install a Stern's SS which makes it reversible but they remove the baffle which makes it run just as hot as a GE or a Westinghouse. The fan just spins and does nothing. When I install the baffle like the original, it runs only warm because the baffle channels the air from the fan thru the stator like it is supposed to do. Why? If you buy a Stahl's version for a national gearbox you get a Marathon motor adapted to fit. It runs very hot. Cost savings--yes, reliability like a national???
                      Yeah but, We've always done it that way.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Vantage BE motors

                        Very Hot

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                        • #13
                          Re: Vantage BE motors

                          Perhaps i should tac weld a skillet to it, and put all the blazing heat to good use

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                          • #14
                            Re: Vantage BE motors

                            No need to tack weld. Just hold skillet on motor with ove-glove for 10 minutes and it will weld itself. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

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                            • #15
                              Re: Vantage BE motors

                              excellent posts from GMan143 and triac.
                              very informative for everybody.
                              maister

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