GE Motors

[bowlingchick-R]

Hello, Well one of our motors on lane three well the back end motor keeps kicking out. Last night it kicked out about 5 times so i was just wondering what causes that. Well I'm pretty sure from reading the other forums that its a wire or something but we checked all the wires and we changed the klixon switch on it so i'm a little clueless about what is going on. I want to rebuild one but I don't know what parts I need and where to get them so if anyone can give me any info on that that would be great oh and how do I examine the motor also to makes sure everything is working properly. Thanks for your time!

[felix]

Re: GE Motors

Kit Kat Girl;
I think your problem could be your (centrifugal mechanism/rotating switch) that throws the switch from the starter winding to the run winding on the armature could be your problem.
If so.. it probably slid down the shaft too far. If this is the case, gentley pry evenly upward an 1/8 of an inch at a time and retry...Try taking the bell cap off the stater and putting just the bell on the gearbox armature. See how the switch lines up with the cent. mech. actualy move the mechanism back and forth to see if it makes contact and then doesn't. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]

[TheGMan143]

Re: GE Motors

There a bunch of reasons that can cause the klixon on a backend to pop, but for the majority of them:

Motor overheat, usually caused by too much strain on the motor due to a tight/spun bearing in the motor or gearbox, external strain like a carpet roller bearing binding up, belts too tight, or sometimes from a jam in the pit or lift area (sometimes pins get pushed under the carpet by the 'paddle' in the ball lift, causing the carpet to bind and track incorrectly). This can also be compounded by dust-clogged vent holes in the motor.

Many motors use an internal 'centrifugal' switch that switches from the starting windings to the run windings when the motor runs up to speed. If the centrifugal mechanism or the switch goes bad, it can cause the motor to stay running on the "hotter" start windings, which will overload pretty quickly. This is a pretty common problem on National motors w/ centrifugal switches. If the motor you have has an electronic starting switch, the electronics may be failing.

The starting capacitor on the side of the motor housing dries out or shorts internally, causing the klixon to trip instantly in some cases, or after a short period of running in others.

Most of the electrical problems with the motor that will trip the klixon are things like shorted start/run windings, faulty insulation in the motor, burnt/loose connections, damaged insulation in the motor wiring, or a bad klixon switch (they get stressed from age and can sometimes become very easy to trip.)

As for repair parts, the newer GE/Westinghouse motors have parts available. National motors are tricky... they're older and parts are harder to come by. Gearbox parts are still available... there is an exploded-view diagram and parts list out there for the gearbox that should contain most of the info you will need.

[bowlingchick-R]

Re: GE Motors

All right well when I went into work today the head mechanic switched the motors out and when he put the new motor on it was working all right for him but when the manager went into the back and turned the machine on the motor started backwards well everything was running backwards and the distributor went all crazy and messed up. When we switched some wires in the motor we tried to start it up and it wouldn't do anything. So they told me to pull on the belt that turnes the wheel for the pins to go up to the distributor. So I did and nothing happened again. I don't understand why they told me to pull on the belt. Anyways they got the machine working properly but hopefully it wont overheat like the other motor did. And tomorrow they are going to let me try and rebuild the motor or try to figure out if the problem is in the motor or not. See the thing that is weird is that on the same lane we had a bent shaft on the motor and that was causing problems so this is the second motor we've had to change in about 2 months. So does that mean that their could be a problem in something else besides the motor?

[RGP]

Re: GE Motors

A couple of things. One is covered already, centrifugel mech. If you are using electronic start relays (which replaces cent.mech) just try switching that out. Also you might want to chech out the gearbox, ball lift or carpet rollers. If any of these has a bad bearing, the motor has to work harder causing it to overheat. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]

[bowlingchick-R]

Re: GE Motors

Sorry but I got another couple of questions. I don't know exactly what it is called but the switch that activates the machine when a ball gets thrown..(82/70 AMF machines)the one that is connected to the cushion. Well I hope you know what I'm talking about. It is really loose and the it has like a metal piece connected to a screw or something on it (I wish I knew what to call these things) anyways it is loose and you can move it around a lot and I was just wondering if this could be the problem with the motor not working properly or not. Oh yeah another question is their anyway to stop balls from getting stuck in the pit. See some of the balls end up rolling around in the back of the pindeck and they just stay their, they don't go all the way back to the ball return door or anything they just roll around and around. We get like 4 to 5 calls a night on this and I was just wondering if anyone else has this problem. And yet another question, on two particular lanes (5 and 6) we get a pin stuck in the ball door and we have to go back their and take it out just to get the balls to go up and I know someone had a suggestion that it was the rudder arm or something like that. Well the paddle arm that pushes the paddle back and forth. My question is how do I adjust it. Sorry for all the questions its just that I am really interested in learning all this but I'm afraid to mess things up worse. Anyways thank you for your time and I really appreciate all the help you all give me.

[Rep]

Re: GE Motors

Originally posted by bowlingchick:
Sorry but I got another couple of questions. I don't know exactly what it is called but the switch that activates the machine when a ball gets thrown..(82/70 AMF machines)the one that is connected to the cushion. Well I hope you know what I'm talking about. It is really loose and the it has like a metal piece connected to a screw or something on it (I wish I knew what to call these things) anyways it is loose and you can move it around a lot and I was just wondering if this could be the problem with the motor not working properly or not. Oh yeah another question is their anyway to stop balls from getting stuck in the pit. See some of the balls end up rolling around in the back of the pindeck and they just stay their, they don't go all the way back to the ball return door or anything they just roll around and around. We get like 4 to 5 calls a night on this and I was just wondering if anyone else has this problem. And yet another question, on two particular lanes (5 and 6) we get a pin stuck in the ball door and we have to go back their and take it out just to get the balls to go up and I know someone had a suggestion that it was the rudder arm or something like that. Well the paddle arm that pushes the paddle back and forth. My question is how do I adjust it. Sorry for all the questions its just that I am really interested in learning all this but I'm afraid to mess things up worse. Anyways thank you for your time and I really appreciate all the help you all give me.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The switch you speak of hooked to the cushion shock, is the start switch, and thats all it does, when open it sends a signal to the chassis to start a cycle, there should be 2 7/16 bolts that hold the bracket the switch is on, check to make sure both nuts and bolts are tight, naturally if not repair it as it will only cause problems with it either not cycling or going into a continuous cycle. As for balls getting stuck behind the pindeck, I'm assuming they're on the front roller, a worn or stretched carpet is usually the culprit there, they do have a kit you can put on the underside of the bounce plate to fix this on lanes that get this chronically and they do work well. A quick little rig if you don't have time to get into the pit is to get an old piece of carpet or even old distributor belt and screw it in the gutter and let it hang over the front roller (wherever the ball gets stuck) for a little extra support for the ball (either ball door side or opposite, usually ball door side), not a proper fix but a good rig until you can get into the pit. As for pins in the door it's almost definately something in there, check all your belts, the paddle shock (rudder arm). If everything looks good where it screws onto the pulley there is a little piece that slides when you loosen it. Set it so it extends the shock as far as possible for more tension. Also check the shock itself, if you can push it in or pull it out easily it's shot, there should be a good bit of resistance on it when you try to do this. Good luck and keep us informed as to how it all turns out [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

[NCWINGNUT]

Re: GE Motors

Well chick it sounds like the head mechanic is trying to show you little more about the machines...
First of all the cushion switch should not be moving around, it needs to be tightened, and this switch really does not have anything to do with the backend motor, however it does need to be tightened. Good observation! Also the cushion switch may not be in use anymore, we upgraded our scoring and therefore do not use the cushion switch, the machine is triggered from sensors on the lane at the scoring. The company unhooked all of ours but did not remove them.

Second "pins in the ball door" is common, or at least in our house. It has a lot to do with adjustments to the rudder drive, tension on the shock,(which some styles you can adjust), belt tensioner, belts, and the type of ball return you have. Basically if you guy's run the same rudder drive link we do, there is 2 adjustments. One is for the paddle to run side to side, this adjustment can be made by loosening the nut on the front of the link, at the rear of the link, the shaft should stick out some, while the machine is running take a 1/2 wrench and move in one direction while watching the paddle make its path, the paddle should make a complete even pass from lane to lane, if it gets worse or locks up move in the oppisite direction, and the other adjustment is the amount of tension on the springs inside the link. This should be adjusted so there is enough tension to push the pin out of the door, while a ball is "riding there" holding the pin in the door. The way you can adjust this is there is a large locknut at the rear of the link and another "large bolt that can be screwed in to apply more pressure. You may not have the same style as we do, there is many different styles so don't let me miss lead you.

You may also want to check for belts slipping or the rudder drive locking up, because of it being out of adjustment.

Sorry if i have confused you. Good luck and keep up the good work.

[Steve Stafford (JBEES)]

Re: GE Motors

Originally posted by NCWINGNUT:
Also the cushion switch may not be in use anymore, we upgraded our scoring and therefore do not use the cushion switch, the machine is triggered from sensors on the lane at the scoring. The company unhooked all of ours but did not remove them.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm missing something...why unhook the start switch when installing electronic triggering?

On "B's, many guys let the pit cushion linkage go south (lack of PM) because they state they have electronic triggering and don't need the mechanical triggering anymore. I disagree...my house now has electronic triggering, however my mechanical triggering still functions well and we are still rebuilding linkage that has been neglected for years. If my electronic triggering fails...I still have a system that functions just as it did before the electronic triggering.

Will problems occur if the start switch is left intact and electronic triggering is used? What do these houses do if the electronic triggering fails?

[TheLegend]

Re: GE Motors

Originally posted by JBEES:
I'm missing something...why unhook the start switch when installing electronic triggering?

On "B's, many guys let the pit cushion linkage go south (lack of PM) because they state they have electronic triggering and don't need the mechanical triggering anymore. I disagree...my house now has electronic triggering, however my mechanical triggering still functions well and we are still rebuilding linkage that has been neglected for years. If my electronic triggering fails...I still have a system that functions just as it did before the electronic triggering.

Will problems occur if the start switch is left intact and electronic triggering is used? What do these houses do if the electronic triggering fails?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shouldn't be any problems with it, Steve. Unless there's one with timing when the ball trigger sends its signal and the scoring takes it data.

Now.... on our A-2s at Mesa we've had to disable the start switches in the circuit box (ie. disconnect wire 18) because on occasion they would end up not cycling and/or not scoring. I think it has something to do with certain TDMs, but you'd have to ask Gil about it.

[NCWINGNUT]

Re: GE Motors

Originally posted by JBEES:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by NCWINGNUT:
Also the cushion switch may not be in use anymore, we upgraded our scoring and therefore do not use the cushion switch, the machine is triggered from sensors on the lane at the scoring. The company unhooked all of ours but did not remove them.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm missing something...why unhook the start switch when installing electronic triggering?

On "B's, many guys let the pit cushion linkage go south (lack of PM) because they state they have electronic triggering and don't need the mechanical triggering anymore. I disagree...my house now has electronic triggering, however my mechanical triggering still functions well and we are still rebuilding linkage that has been neglected for years. If my electronic triggering fails...I still have a system that functions just as it did before the electronic triggering.

Will problems occur if the start switch is left intact and electronic triggering is used? What do these houses do if the electronic triggering fails?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We did not unhook the cushion switch, the guys that put the scoring in did. They basically cut the wires, but did not remove them. With the system we have, yes if the trigger fails, the cushion switch can be used, but only to cycle the machine, it will not score!!!

[bowlingchick-R]

Re: GE Motors

Well remember when I said we changed the motor. Well it is doing the same thing. It keeps kicking out and I guess the guys are going to be working on it today so hopefully they will fill me in on to what is going on so that way I can fill in all of you. I just hope we can find this problem. I told them last night to check the bearings on the rollers and they told me that it probably isn't them because everything seems to be running freely. The motor that we took off, the wires were like really burnt the wire coverings (forgot the name) were falling off of the wires. It was really bad but they told me that as long as the wire itself wasn't all crumbly then it was fine. Anyways sorry if you don't understand what i'm saying i'm learning. Thanks for all your posts and info it is really helping.

[TheGMan143]

Re: GE Motors

If another motor that was just put on is doing the same thing, I'd definitely say tht there is something binding in the backend drive... either that or the motor that was put on was as bad as the one it replaced. From the electrical end, check the wiring and connections through the wireway for the BEM, and the BE relay as well. If you have a lot of electrical resistance in the connections or relay, it can cause the motor to run on an undervoltage condition, which will kick the klixon after a while from the overload of the motor trying to run on less than the rated voltage. It will also heat up the wiring and connections... which is one cause of the wiring insulation becoming burnt or crumbly.

If the wiring and electrical check out OK:

If you only changed out the motor, try changing out the gearbox as well. If you want to check for mechanical resistance in the gearbox before pulling it off the machine, you can disconnect the belts and shaft, remove the motor, and turn the carpet/lift drive pulley... you should be able to turn it by hand with a small amount of resistance... if it seems like you have to really CRANK on it (of it won't move by hand), you have a bind in the gearbox.

If the gearbox is OK, the next thing to check is the driven components of the machine. It will most likely not be the distributor... it doesn't have enough mechanical resistance to cause a BEM to overheat by itself. The wheel drive, carpet drive, or the ball lift drive is the usual culprit... sometimes it's a combination of them.

Remove the wheel drive belt and give the wheel a spin... it should turn by itself for a short while, and COAST to a stop. If you turn it and it immediately drags to a stop, you may want to pull the wheel and check the ring tube for cracked brackets (causing it to bend out of round and bind), and check the bearings for free movement. Very dry bearings will cause a lot of drag as well.

In the pit (as I mentioned before) check for pins under the carpet, look for frozen carpet roller bearings, worn rubber bearing seats, and make sure that the front roller flanges have clearance at the tailplank. Sometimes a frayed carpet edge will wrap strings around the roller ends, that pile up and act like a brake when it's running

On the ball lift, make sure that the clutches and shafts are turning freely, without binding or grabbing when spun by hand. Also make sure that the lift belt tension isn't too tight... it can cause a lot of resistance when overtightened. A common problem with the chutches is when one seizes up and forces the ball lift to try to drive the other machine in the pair... that will heat motors up VERY quickly.

[Steve Stafford (JBEES)]

Re: GE Motors

If I remember correctly, the C1 plug supplies power to the back end motor. This is a connection that can become corroded over time and build resistance...thus creating heat ect ect. The pins mate together that after time can become loose and develop problems. If you seem to have everything OK as far as the mechanical goes...I would look here. The best procedure is to monitor the voltage to the motor while it is running and see if you are getting full voltage to the motor. If you aren't, check the pins.

I just didn't see anybody suggest the C1 plug, so I thought I would step out on a limb and make a suggestion.

[2424pepsi]

Re: GE Motors

Bowlingchick--This is pepsi2424 in Minn.First of all you do have a bind somewhere if you want to find out for sure find a 15-20 dollar amp probe a FLUKE 332 or 333 is one of the best to use on 82-70 b machines. Next get some 14 gauge zip cord--put a 110 volt plug on it--and a male connector to plug in to your motor--pull the zip cord apart 2 inches and clamp your AMP probe on this cord--plug your motor in--then plug the other end into a wall outlet-- Your FLA reading will be 5.6 to 7.1 amps. FLA equals--Full Load Amps. If it is higher than 7.1 amps you have a Problem--Disconnect Dist drive 1st--Ball return and carpet drive 2nd and if you need to Pin elevater last--If your Amp reading falls you've found your problem. I check my motors--once a month and find problems before they happen. If you need more details call RSI school in Phoenix--Great school for learning about motors and electronics!!! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif[/img]