Constant dead wood

[TheCatfish]

This week, I started keeping track of frames per stop after reading about it here. It just figures that we would have the worst week ever.

But, it did point out where our problem areas are. We ran at about 200 fps during leagues. Open play I didn't track, but I know it runs at a better rate. If we could cut down the massive amounts of dead wood, we could get that to 600-800 in a hurry. I had 10 of them in one league (12 5-man teams) last night.

One issue seems to be the gate rolling over 3-4 pins in one gutter instead of pushing it back causing 1-2 of them to pop out. I've been told the gates are at minimum height. Just so I know, what is the recommended min height?

The other is a hard pit. Pins get kicked out many times when a hard thrower goes after a 7 or 10. One guy has 4 7-10's made this season in one league. Is there anything that can be done to soften things up a bit?

Another alley with the exact same equipment as ours and has maybe 15% of the dead wood calls we have.

[img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]

[JimDorsin]

Re: Constant dead wood

AMf now has a (it is a 90's style) SWEEP bracket that is one piece from the SWEEP to the shock mount, replaces the slide bar...might help a little

[TheGMan143]

Re: Constant dead wood

As for your sweeps running up over dead wood in the gutters, if you're using aluminum or other lightweight sweep bars, they don't have the heft to stay put like the old (original)epoxy/fiberglass ones. We had a couple that were a bit too light to be smooth when running (not enough 'mechanical resistance' on the sweep drive), so they would jerk and bounce when traveling... and they would occasionally ride up over pins. There were only a couple of them, so we just went to the scrapyard and got some pieces of 1"x1-1/4" solid flat steel and bolted it into the rail to heavy it up a bit. Cured about 99% of the problems.

For your height adjustments, the sweep is at it's lowest point on the lane around the 2/3-5 pin area... if it clears the deck and gutters there, it should clear everywhere else as well. The lower you can get it adjusted without scraping at that point, the better. You cam adjustments also come into play... if the sweep stops too high off the lane at 66-stop, when it travels the rest of the way down, it will slam down and then bounce up. If there's a pin close to where it bounces up, it can hop over the head of it and then drag it back and forth instead of pushing it into the pit.

[Clutch Plate]

Re: Constant dead wood

Catfish, as for your other problem, there is no such thing as a hard pit, I wish I had the action you have. It is quite common for a 7 or 10 to become deadwood if the ball is thrown hard enough. This only happens opposite ball door side. Meaning if you are on lane 1, the 7 pin will come out, and lane 2 the 10 pin will come out. Take notice next time you go for deadwood.

[toon30s]

Re: Constant dead wood

My center used to have deadwood BAD!! I cured a lot of it by coating the flat gutters with urethane. Also, if you have the black one piece sweeps, be sure the plastic caps are on (on the part that clears the gutters). Without them, the sweep will ride over the pins. Let us know what you find!!!

[Running2]

Re: Constant dead wood

Unless the deadwood is from the sweep malfunctioning is it really considered a stop? I dont count deadwood in FPS as it is not a machine malfunction. Just curious,what do you guys consider stops on 82-70s. I'm sure everyone has different feelings on this.

[Kingram]

Re: Constant dead wood

Originally posted by toon30s:
My center used to have deadwood BAD!! I cured a lot of it by coating the flat gutters with urethane. Also, if you have the black one piece sweeps, be sure the plastic caps are on (on the part that clears the gutters). Without them, the sweep will ride over the pins. Let us know what you find!!!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Toon,
If you are still running the 30's as I am on 18 lanes, here is the problem I found.As years of sanding took about 3/4" or more off our lanes, the flat gutters had to be lowered accordingly. Only problem with this is the A frame of the machine and the sweep gear train stayed in the same place. Table could be lowered to adjust for this loss but not the sweep. I also have the 1 piece sweep from AMF so we took the sweep brackets and drilled the mounting holes 1" higher which dropped the sweep 1" lower and this solved our dead wood problem.

[TheGMan143]

Re: Constant dead wood

Originally posted by toon30s:
I cured a lot of it by coating the flat gutters with urethane.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I noticed an improvement with smoother, more "slick" gutters as well... when we installed 1-piece "Bowl-Tuf" gutter flats, it seemed like a lot of the "gutter deadwood" problems went away.

[TheCatfish]

Re: Constant dead wood

Thank you for the replies. I will check with the manager tomorrow. As for specific posts.

Catfish, as for your other problem, there is no such thing as a hard pit, I wish I had the action you have. It is quite common for a 7 or 10 to become deadwood if the ball is thrown hard enough. This only happens opposite ball door side. Meaning if you are on lane 1, the 7 pin will come out, and lane 2 the 10 pin will come out. Take notice next time you go for deadwood.

Most common pins popped out in order for righties are 10,7,2,8 and 9 pins. Corner pins pop out more often opposite ball door, but still pop out on both sides. I've created back to back 7-pin dead woods throwing under 20 mph just by hitting the right spot in the corner.

Unless the deadwood is from the sweep malfunctioning is it really considered a stop? I dont count deadwood in FPS as it is not a machine malfunction. Just curious,what do you guys consider stops on 82-70s. I'm sure everyone has different feelings on this.

I thought it was considered a stop only because I have to run from the desk and go get them every time. Its still work for me. If its not considered a stop, then we are doing better than I thought. Comparing to another local center that has identical equipment down back, their potential dead wood seems to be stopped by the end of the deck or gutter. The 7 pins I leave that slide up the gutter here, slam against the end of the gutter there. Would flat gutter height have anything to do with that? We do have 1/8" of room to raise them and have at least talked about raising them. Not sure if we ever will do it. It would have a nice side effect of helping carry. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

[Steve Stafford (JBEES)]

Re: Constant dead wood

Originally posted by gw407:
I dont count deadwood in FPS as it is not a machine malfunction. Just curious,what do you guys consider stops on 82-70s.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OH BOY...here we go again...LOL [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]

Some guys believe that OOR's aren't calls either. You should count whatever makes you happy. Then when you want to know what the number really means...go ask a bowler how well your machines run. If you are running 2000 fps by not counting deadwood, oor's or some other calls, but only 500 fps if they were all counted...what do your bowlers percieve your machines run at. Thats right...500 fps. Bowlers don't give a hoot as to wether its the machines fault or your fault or the front desk persons fault. All they know is that your machines are making them stop bowling so something can be done to allow them to bowl again. I know some guys that don't count deadwood because they don't catch it. The desk person runs down and gets it so it never gets recorded. Now if you had that situation, you would have never known what machines are giving you problems. So by not counting this call of that call...all you are doing is hiding from the truth. Sort of like having your head in the sand... [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]

Hey...but this is just my opinion...

[8270king]

Re: Constant dead wood

Take it from the King.....OOR's are NOT calls....the machine does what it is designed to do.

However you should try to eliminate the OOR'S

JK

[JimDorsin]

Re: Constant dead wood

Originally posted by 82/70 king:
Take it from the King.....OOR's are NOT calls....the machine does what it is designed to do.

However you should try to eliminate the OOR'S

JK

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I cant express the amount of agreament I have with this statment, or how many times I have had this argument with Managers that only understand #'s and not reality

[Rep]

Re: Constant dead wood

Originally posted by 82/70 king:
Take it from the King.....OOR's are NOT calls....the machine does what it is designed to do.

However you should try to eliminate the OOR'S

JK

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I totally agree with the King, the machine was designed to act as it does during an offspot/OOR, however naturally you should do whatever ya can to avoid them

[pulse-tech]

Re: Constant dead wood

Frames per stop that means every stop
an offspot is a call in my book because they way you maintain your lanes has a direct result on offspots. For instance it was mentioned in an earler post by old school that he cleans his pindecks i bet if he stopped doing that his offspots would increase. So old school is improving the performace of his centre
the guys who are doing millions of offspots are probablly neglecting a certain area of their maintenace. This should show on there fps
Fps should be used as a guide to see where you are at with your centre not counting offspots is like lying to yourself

[8270king]

Re: Constant dead wood

Originally posted by pulse-tech:
Frames per stop that means every stop
an offspot is a call in my book because they way you maintain your lanes has a direct result on offspots. For instance it was mentioned in an earler post by old school that he cleans his pindecks i bet if he stopped doing that his offspots would increase. So old school is improving the performace of his centre
the guys who are doing millions of offspots are probablly neglecting a certain area of their maintenace. This should show on there fps
Fps should be used as a guide to see where you are at with your centre not counting offspots is like lying to yourself

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wake up.....it is NOT a machine malfunction.....I do control OOR's......howerver the machine IS functioning properly when it happens.

JK