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  • pins falling over


  • #2
    Re: pins falling over

    If you have that many pins wobbling or falling, it's probably not the fault of the spotting cups. If the pins wobble and fall, your table adjustments may need to be checked.

    Before you install a spotting cup, it should be checked for square... place it on a level, flat, hard surface, and 'rock' the cup on it's points. If it wobbles side-to-side some, the cup isn't square. A small amount off won't usually hurt, but a large amount will cause problems. If they're already in the machine, you can drop the table to respot position, turn off the machine and pull the power/motor plugs, and use a piece of flat steel that's slightly larger than the cup to check them in place. While you're in there, get your block gage out and check the cup gaps as well... if it's too wide or narrow, it will cause problems.

    Watch the machine as it drops into spotting position with a full rack. Make sure that immediately after the pins hit the deck, that none are being 'pushed' or 'leaned' forward by the spotting cups. If a few of them are, the individual cups may need to be adjusted forward/back.... if they are all moving forward as one, the table adjustments are out or something may be worn or broken in the spot/respot components. I have seen the table height adjusted too low, where it just bumped the deck on spotting, causing pins to drop all over... Another cause is incorrect adjustment of the spotting rod... causing it to move the cups too far forward, tipping the pins slightly. Then when the cups move away, the pins rock back and wobble, sometimes enough to fall over.

    If you don't see any of this, watch the respot cell fingers... if they are not opening fully, the finger can 'bump' a pin while it's being released from the spotting cup, or even flip it forward so it falls as soon as the table starts rising. Misajusted cells will also cause multiple pins to fall if the problem is in the linkage, because several cells will be affected by it. If only a single pin falling is the problem, it may just be a bad cell.

    Also, when the cups swing from horizontal to vertical during spotting, make sure that the cups have a nice, smooth transition... if they 'snap' forward at any time, the pins get out of place in the cups, and will fall on spotting. Most times this is caused by the tension springs on the spotting cup shafts. Too much or too little tension will cause problems. An easy test is to spot ONE pin, then a full rack... the motion of the cups should be almost identical. If it's not, the tension may need adjustment. A good "starting position" for the tension springs is so the plate is directly in line with the 'split' in the spotting cup clamps.

    You may also want to take a look at the front end... inspect the spot/respot cam for any worn spots, check the rod-ends to make sure they aren't cracked or worn, and then watch the unit in operation a few times to see if you notice any rough operation or problems while under power. There's lots of problems that can cause pins to fall on spotting that sometimes get overlooked... a table shaft that's cracked and thinking about breaking, table drive motor/gearbox problems, worn shaft key/shaft splines, cracked/broken bushings in the table... give the machine a good once-over if you don't find anything obvious.

    Keep us posted!
    <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: pins falling over

      Gman covered alot of the basics and frequent causes of dumping pins. Be sure to check the lightning rod that ties the yoke shafts together. The studs and oilites in there tend to get egged out over time and will cause jerky spotting. With the table setting pins at its lowest point, kill pinsetter power. Rock the back row of spotting cups lightly using the tops of the cups. See if there is any slop in the oilite or the bolt for that shaft. Repeat with remaining shafts.

      If all checks out, check the condition of the rod ends of your stabilizer rods and the spotting rod. If the stabilizer rod ends are work, you can easily rock the table when it's at 355 degrees home position. This will cause the table to rock when setting and provide inconsistent spotting action.
      "Where are we going, and why are we in a hand basket?"

      --Kat

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      • #4
        Re: pins falling over

        A shot in the dark here but mainly the four pin and 2-4 or 6 could be a broken yoke at between the 2 and 4 cups. If this is the case you would also have stand up resets of the 2 and 4 pins.
        If not the yoke G man and kat covered all the rest that I would look for.

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        • #5
          Re: pins falling over

          Good call Gman sounds like you covered it all
          Probablly a good idea to inspect the table drive a'ss too if it has a bind in a particular spot it may also make the table motion to be uneven
          First you clean it
          then you lube it
          then you clean it
          then you adjust it
          then you clean it
          then you clean it some more

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          • #6
            Re: pins falling over

            Thanks for all of your posts I really appreciate it a lot. So far we went throught the first part of the Table Adjustment part from the book. What we think was going on was the table was too low in the front so we raised it up by loosening the clevis and we ran it for about 45 minutes and no pins fell over but I dont know we'll see if it holds up tonight.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: pins falling over

              i have had some of the same problems and found the table to be lower in back row than at the headpin. is it suppose to be the same gap at both ends?

              BAMM

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              • #8
                Re: pins falling over

                That's kind of a topic that's up for discussion... I was always taught that the backend of the table was supposed to be slightly (very slightly) lower than the front in spotting position, and our machines always spotted very solidly.

                The old mechanic taught me to set the table with the block gage... at it's lowest point, the table casting's back edge should have just enough clearance to slide the gage under it with a VERY small amount of drag, and be equal on both corners. At the front center, it should be able to be placed under the table casting with no resistance, and just enough room to be able to rock the gage a hair. He said it's mostly a 'feel-type' setting... you do it enough times to know what the right setting should look and feel like. Lots of people will say he was wrong, but it's never failed me for setting the table height.

                Others will say that the table should be dead level at spotting position.

                Actually, thinking logically, probably either one would work equally well... but the difference would come in on the angle of the spotting cups... if the table is slightly tipped, the spotting cups have to be adjusted differently than if the table is level, because the pin bases are supposed to be level with the deck when they contact it. If they're tipped slightly, they'll wobble when released from the cups.
                <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: pins falling over

                  I think "G" has covered this but make sure the table drive is good and tight. Any slippage or (free play) can contribute to the problem.
                  Yeah but, We've always done it that way.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: pins falling over

                    Originally posted by TheGMan143:
                    because the pin bases are supposed to be level with the deck when they contact it. If they're tipped slightly, they'll wobble when released from the cups.
                    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gman...that's not what we were taught in pinspotter school. The design of the machine when spotting new pins is to have the "toe" of the pin touch first, then the cups lower just a bit more to release the pins from the cups (but they are still leaning into the cup so stay stable) then the cups rotate to the rear and allow the pin to set onto the base of the pin squarely. This is all done with the table perfectly level front to back. The instructor called this adjustment "setting the toe". I would need to go back through the adjustment to be sure of what all is involved, but that's the readers digest version...
                    TSM & TSM Training Development
                    Main Event Entertainment
                    480-620-6758 for help or information

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: pins falling over

                      I Agree. Toe-in is important for a solid rack. If the pins are spotted flat THAT'S when they wobble. If you crank the table to the point where the front edges of the pins are just barely touching the deck, the back edge of the pins should be about 1/32" off the deck.

                      I do agree that the back of the table should be (or at least 'can be') just a hair lower than the front.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: pins falling over

                        Well we thought that we fixed the problem but we didn't. On the womens leagues wednesday (yesterday) the 6 pin fell over twice and the four pin fell over once. I don't know what's going on but the mechanic is going to work on it today. I can't be there to see what he is going to do because I worked the morning shift today so I won't get the information until tomorrow but hopefully he fixes it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: pins falling over

                          Originally posted by JBEES:
                          </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by TheGMan143:
                          because the pin bases are supposed to be level with the deck when they contact it. If they're tipped slightly, they'll wobble when released from the cups.
                          <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gman...that's not what we were taught in pinspotter school. The design of the machine when spotting new pins is to have the "toe" of the pin touch first, then the cups lower just a bit more to release the pins from the cups (but they are still leaning into the cup so stay stable) then the cups rotate to the rear and allow the pin to set onto the base of the pin squarely. This is all done with the table perfectly level front to back. The instructor called this adjustment "setting the toe". I would need to go back through the adjustment to be sure of what all is involved, but that's the readers digest version...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess I never really noticed it... never even heard of "setting the toe"... What you say stands to reason.

                          I never actually measured the angle of the pins when they hit the deck... just eyeballed them... a 32nd wouldn't really be noticeable unless you did exactly what was stated... crank the table until the pins just touched the deck.

                          Honestly, it's gonna sound screwy, but I go by the sound of the pins contacting the deck, and whether not they wobble, to see if they're spotting correctly. If the whole set wobbled, I'd tweak the table angle a bit... if ony one or two wobbled, I'd adjust the cups of the wobblers.

                          My bad... I was probably setting them slightly tipped, and just never really noticed it. I stand corrected.
                          <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: pins falling over

                            Going by sound is definitely one way. Pins spotting flat (with no toe-in) will really BOOM on the deck. Much quieter with the toe-in. The instructor in pinspotter class also told us that the table castings aren't perfect and you may find alot of variation when setting the heighth--but in general the block gauge should clear everywhere.
                            And Bowlingchic if you had 3 pins fall over for the whole league, I wouldn't bother jumping all over the mechanic about it. If your league bowlers consider that something to push you around about you are in trouble.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: pins falling over

                              my instructor taught us that you should adjust the FRONT of the table to be a 16th of an inch lower than the back because, (with everything being mechanically sound, rod ends, etc.) as the cups are backing away from the pins, through the action of the spot cam/rod "pulling" it tends to raise the front of the table ever so slightly- and you make this adjustment so that when the machine is running and goes through a spotting cycle, when it is spotting pins the machine will actually pull up on the table making it perfectly level. And if all your toe-in adjustments are right you should barely hear the pins touch the pindeck when they are spotted.

                              Comment

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