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Ok guys, here's the situation: I have two MP chassis (spares thank God) that at some point in time were gutted of their sweep and table relays for the contact blocks to use on other chassis. I'm trying to get both of these working again so I have a spare WORKING chassis. With the wiring chart from the AMF electrical manual, a volt-ohm meter, lots of time, and even more patience I traced out every wire and installed brand new Siemens relays in both chassis. Now here's the problem: When I put one of them on the machine and turn on the machine, the sweep relay chatters. On the other chassis, the table relay hums and chatters as if it's trying to engage. I've tried different (known working) MP boards in both with the same result. I've thoroughly gone through the wiring for the relays twice in each chassis making sure I had everything connected correctly. I even compared it to a working chassis and all the wiring matches up. Any ideas on this one? I thought I'd pick all of your collective brain cells before I thrown in the towel and send these off to someone to repair.
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
Just a weird idea... did you try powering on the chassis with NO board in it? I had a similar problem a while back with one of our SS chassis... turns out there was an actual wiring fault that had nothing to do with the board.
I'm giving possibility a stretch here... it's kind of improbable that two chassis with a similar problem would both be a wiring fault, but you never know.
The only other time I had a similar problem is when I connected the sweep control wire from the omega-tek expander board to the opposite terminal of the contactor coil than where it was supposed to be. Dunno why it it should matter, but the contactor would buzz as soon as it was powered.
The only thing that seems to have changed here is the Siemens relays you put in... everything else seems to be the same. Same chassis, same basic problem (albeit one on the table and one on the sweep), same wiring.
Is it possible that you were sent two incorrect relays? DC relays will often buzz or chatter when fed AC. If the circuit is looking for a certain resistance or whatever to be there (the coil of the relay), and it's not, it could be affecting a transistor or gate somewhere in the circuit, causing it to allow current flow where there shouldn't be any. Are you using those relays on other machines with no problems, or are they something new you're trying?
Again, I'm kind of just throwing out thoughts here... We have SS chassis with Omega-Tek boards, and I've only had a minor amount of exposure to MP boards. I'm not claiming to be anywhere NEAR well-versed in MP units.<span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span> -
Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
Have the 2 Chassis been tried on different machines?
Also cross check the resistance rating across the contactor coil with a known good unit."Where are we going, and why are we in a hand basket?"
--KatComment
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
MP's are a funny breed.
I just repaired 12 at the center I pulled service at.
I had one chassis that would run a short x cycle on a machine but would not sweep reverse on a gutterball.....change board...same thing......put it on a different lane it runs fine [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img]
MP chassis [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif[/img] .....change over to SS
[img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]Comment
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Indeed...Originally posted by 82/70 king:
MP's are a funny breed.
[img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]
I remember in Reno we had a couple of them there to try out after the BPAA convention was in town. Kept blowing the BE motor controller on the PC board after a day or so. Turned out the C1 plug had a couple of pins that were slightly corroded from age. Changed out all the pins in the C1 that didn't look brand spankin' new and never had trouble after that.-- LarryComment
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
It could be bad varisters that go across the coils. These are V3 and V4. Try lifting a leg of both to see if they are bad. They are underneath the PC board plug P1.
MikeComment
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
Dito v3 or 4 in my experience
(only had 7 in my last centre and hated evey one of them)First you clean it
then you lube it
then you clean it
then you adjust it
then you clean it
then you clean it some moreComment
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
You might have a C2A problem. Check all the pins by using a male pin and pushing it into the female pins on the C2A. It isn't unusual to have a C2 pin push in and after you pull the machine side off it will "pop" back out looking like it is seated OK. Make sure M, S, and M2 relays are all AC relays! I haven't seen any DC contactors (yet), but confirm they are indeed 24 VAC types. On the varistors, just cut 'em out. They are a pain in the arse!! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif[/img] If you are comparing to a known good chassis, don't just use a meter. Trace the wires physically. Make sure the C1 socket is GOOD, not burnt or even slightly burnt. Finally, ignore King's comments on changing to SS chassis! :p MP's RULE! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
If you really get sick of it, ship it to me and let me pull whats left of MY hair out on the thing! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
Jon [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/usflag.jpg[/img]
website: <a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank">http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/</a></a></a></a></a></a></a></a></a>I've had enough of hope & chains.Comment
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">FixedOriginally posted by wb8yjf:
You might have a C2A problem. Check all the pins by using a male pin and pushing it into the female pins on the C2A. It isn't unusual to have a C2 pin push in and after you pull the machine side off it will "pop" back out looking like it is seated OK. Make sure M, S, and M2 relays are all AC relays! I haven't seen any DC contactors (yet), but confirm they are indeed 24 VAC types. On the varistors, just cut 'em out. They are a pain in the arse!! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif[/img] If you are comparing to a known good chassis, don't just use a meter. Trace the wires physically. Make sure the C1 socket is GOOD, not burnt or even slightly burnt. Finally, heed King's comments on changing to SS chassis! :p MP's suck [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
If you really get sick of it, ship it to me and let me pull whats left of MY hair out on the thing! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
Jon [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/usflag.jpg[/img]
website: <a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/" target="_blank">http://home.earthlink.net/~wb8yjf/</a></a></a></a></a></a></a></a></a>Comment
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
Yepper! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/usflag.jpg[/img]I've had enough of hope & chains.Comment
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
Larry,
Both of those MP's are history! They both blew up (more than once) & I got tired of fixing them. After a while of just letting them sit on the shelf, I cannibalized them for anything useful (not much) & tossed them.
They (Hilton) are slowly replacing the original SS chassis with Omoga-Tek SS chassis. They're pretty cool. Everything, including the C-1 & C-2-A's are modular.Comment
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
Thanks everyone. I now have two working spare MP chassis. Monday right before our big hdcp league started up I cut out the varistors and installed them on 19 & 20. They ran beautifully all night... no hums, no sparks, no chatters!
King, I've never used SS chassis before, but I'm very happy with my MPs. The only thing I wish had been done differently with them: individual high voltage connectors for the 3 motors instead of that one flimsy C1 plug.Comment
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
Over the last few months I have seen a lot of anti MP comments here...It baffeles me that so many people has had problems with them. All the ones I have experienced in my 17 some odd years were vastly superrior to SS. I had 3 centers with mp's..the 20 and 30 lane center I stocked 1 spare. the 36 lane center I had 2 only becasue my DM required it. 90% of the time when they were changed, it was becasue an inexpierenced pinchaser thought changing the chassis would stop the distributor from piling up...lol (bet you have all been there) when there was a problem, mostly it turned out to be bad pins, or (after 20 years of service) my mark 3 boards started loosing there program.. The 36 lane house had Allen Bradlys , so I had some contacts go bad, once I changed to the Bowltronics contacter replacment, that went away. They (in my opinion) are almost bullet proof, but thats not to say others havent encountered things I have not. Just my opinion!!Comment
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
Jim,
I have to agree with you. I love my MP chassis. My center has been running for the last two years with no spares that worked. The seven spare chassis have had various relays gutted out of them to replace the Allen Bradleys with bad contacts, etc. I got two of them put back together, because you never know when something will fry during a full house of leagues. The other five I'm going to rebuild just to get more experience with them.
As for pinchasers changing chassis because of pinpiles, ball returns, etc - yes, I have been there. I was a head mechanic in an 82/30 house with 6525 chassis and I could always tell when one particular pinchaser worked the shift the night before I came in. I'd have one machine with 10 chassis sitting behind it and no chassis on the machine. I'd usually have to go through all 10 of them to find the original working chassis that had been on the machine to start with. Boy those were the good ole days! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]Comment
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Re: 82-70 MP Chassis Woes....
I'm a bit surprised you didn't find one of the problems to be a pinchaser/snackbar worker poking his fingers repeatedly into the top portion of the A/B contacts in defiance of Pavlov. Of course he CAN do this now, with the Siemens...heh heh heh.One of my desk idiots recently mentioned that he believed he got the majority of his calls correct. I had to explain to him that he shouldn't confuse his ability to make calls with my ability to figure out what the hell he was talking about.Comment
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