Wow...head scratcher

[JimDorsin]

Here is a head scratcher. 5 board chassis w/ MK-70 and expander. No strike cycle on 27. 28 works fine. swaped expander....same problem. 27 scored correctly, as does 28. Swaped chassis with 28, swept pins on both lanes, put in 1st ball cycle. Went up front, turned on Qubica BES. threw a ball on both lanes. 28 still has strike cycle, 27 still does not...IT IS IN THE MACHINE. scoring system is working properly. obviously not communicating with expander. (table Cable unpluged) Scoring should override any cell signal anyway. Started looking into it right b4 shift over, so I havent had time to delve into it deaply, just want some ideas. (C1 and C2-A look good upon inspection.) I am not so versed in these 5 boarders....lol, had to trace schematics to discover there is a time delay module...lol MP's it is intregrated in the board {GOD I MISS MP'S!!!}

[TheGMan143]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

One note... with MK70s and Qubica, the table cell switches will override the strike cycle. If you have a shorted cell or cell wire, it will kill the strike signal from the scoring. Since you stated that you already eliminated that problem...

Another few notes ... with the expander installed and the scoring cameras and system disconnected or turned off, the machine will never run a strike cycle... the MK board holds the #1 or #5 pin closed at all times to protect the table... the scoring is the only thing that will override that function. You may want to try removing ONLY the expander from the chassis, reconnect your table cable, and see if it will run a strike cycle off the cell switches like it used to before the scoring was installed... To do so, you will also need the little jumper block that should have come with your expanders... it straps out the sweep reverse connection block that goes to the expander without having to disconnect the wiring and put it back to it's original configuration. The sweep won't run without it.

If you ever have a problem like this with the scoring connected, try swapping the XLMP and machine cables from a working pair, or with a spare if you have one. I had that same problem with a lane, and after tearing things apart, that's what it turned out to be. Only one side of the XLMP went down... the other lane in the pair was working fine.

[JimDorsin]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

Tested with scoring...and the cable is unpluged. All gps long since jumped...Its a craxy thing, the scoring system is at least partialy communicating with pinspotter, because Qubica disconects the pit cycle switch. The camera is cycling the machine, it scores the strike, and the prob dosent follow chassis.

[TheGMan143]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

Sorry... revsed my post after rereading your message. I saw that you did already eliminate the table cable...

[Music Man]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

If I remember correctly I had a problem like this when our system was first installed. Look in the wire way where the table cable comes in at and see if see if the wire Qubica put there is loose or if a wire from the C2A plug may be shorting there.

We use F boxes and one of the connections there was loose also. And may have been the cause.

[JimDorsin]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

Kewl....I will check that out....I have to say, I hope it turns out to be somewhere i havent worked with before...lol (probably my oversite though) lol

[old-school-mechanic]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

check the table cable, See if any of the wires are grounding on anything. Just cause you unplugged it. Dont mean it still might be the problem.I've seen them wear thru on the rod's or right at the plug.
Just a thought before you get to far into it.

[Music Man]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

Thanks I was going to mention that too.

[JimDorsin]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

with a working expander, the scoring system should overide the long strike cycle and go straight into a short strike cycle regardless of a cell ground signal...hence the reason you ground one wire when eliminating the table cable with auto scoring in the 1st place. If I am mistaken, please let me know, but I am pretty sure that is the case.

[Rep]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

We don't have Qubica, we have Accuscore +. In our case if a cell is grounded it will not override the short cycle (the table will NOT feel for pins) it will sweep the deck off, the strike light wont come on and it will run a respot cycle with no pins on the deck. I would assume Qubica would do something similar. When I see a machine with all the pins up top and the fingers closed, it's sure fire for us that theres a grounded cell. Basically it just confuses the chassis, the scoring tells it strike so it sweeps the deck off, but the ground coming from the cell doesn't allow the chassis to spot pins as the chassis itself still thinks a pin is there. Hope some of this rambling helps hehe [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] Keep us posted

[TheGMan143]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

Originally posted by JimDorsin:
with a working expander, the scoring system should overide the long strike cycle and go straight into a short strike cycle regardless of a cell ground signal...hence the reason you ground one wire when eliminating the table cable with auto scoring in the 1st place. If I am mistaken, please let me know, but I am pretty sure that is the case.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Probably depends on the scoring system and what kind of chassis/boards. We're currently running MK70/MK70EX boards and Qubica Bowland II/Conqueror, with no table wiring at all, nothing grounded... The EX board holds the pin signal internally... on ours it shows up as the #1 pin... it bypasses that signal on a strike. I remember that before I eliminated the table wiring, if a cell grounded out (with or without a pin in it) the machine would not run a short cycle... it would feel for pins on 1st ball. That wa actually the reason for eliminating the wiring in the first place... to get rid of phantom pin calls from beat-up wiring or lose cell connectors.

[Smokey]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

I found the problem. A bad XLMP from Qubica. Thanks for all the input guys.

[Alastair]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

Have Accu-score + scoring with s/s Mk70's and expanders. Table wiring ripped out.
Have one lane which has this problem too. Is quite infrequent though, still highly enoying.

Table will feel for pins on a strike, (as if a pin is left standing on the pindeck).
But, the scoring system says "X".
The Exp board reads "X" on the LED binary display, but the machine will feel for pins even if a strike is bowled and registered by scoring and exp board. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif[/img]

[Rep]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

Well, if you remove the table wiring the expanders must have the jumper set to ground the table any time it's feeling for pins, so thus the shadow rack. We have the same setup, but our wiring is still in, for some reason it seems the chassis doesn't get the info from the camera fast enough and some of ours will feel for pins every now and then instead of running the short strike cycle. Since our wiring is still in we have the jumper set so it will read the strike, and it does spot pins. Anyone have any insight as to why every now and then the expander doesnt seem to kick in?

[Smokey]

Re: Wow...head scratcher

try shortening your 1st and 2nd reads for the machines in conquerer. I had to go from 2.5 secs to 2.0 secs. Qubica will say that ain't it, but it worked for me.