Cycle Problem... HELP!

[LancerLanesMech]

Ok, only been working part time this summer so I haven't got to see everything 1st hand. Desk person says lane 1 is turning on by itself and won't cycle. I have 82-70's with omegatek conversion and expanders with Qubica scoring.

This is what I found when I went to check it. Sure enough the machine is turning on & off, there's a loud buzzing sound coming from the chassis. The M relay is lighting up like the 4th of July. Here's what I've done so far...

Change M relay, same thing.

Remove chassis and put on the one from lane 2 that was working fine. No more relay chatter but still will not cycle. It doesn't even try, the sweep contactor doesn't move at all. However, I can run the sweep with the sweep run switch and the SA switch. If I run it down to 1st guard, it will cycle from there. Pushing the cycle button on the back control panel doesn't work either. It's almost like it's in Instructomat mode.

So now I unhook #5&6 wire from A&MC box, hook them together to bypass manager control and still no luck. Jamie at Stahls said to also check the manager switch and wires on the back panel, so I took them out completely and still didn't work.

I noticed that there was that sweep relay in the channel that stahls sells. To be quite honest they have failed on me causing a lot of problems so I remove it and rewire it to factory specs and then convert to expander. Same thing. One thing I have to try is a different sweep motor because I have a national sweep motor on it and there no CENT switch because of that relay in the channel and i forgot that when setup the normal way you need a cent switch. I'll try that in the morning (wait it is morning already) and see what happens. Throw me some ideas in the meantime cuz the contactor isn't pulling in at all and I don't think thats my main problem, but I do need to change it anyway. Sounds like an instructo problem, any other way it can get that signal without manager control hooked up?? I have a full house Thursday so wish me luck!

Charley

[mtdewman]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

Check the pins in C1 plug on chassis,sounds like there might be a few burnt,also try swapping the sweep relay with the M relay,hope this helps,let us know what fixes it

[mtdewman]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

Even without the cent mech the contactor should pull in,it doesn't sound like it is in the motor to me

[maister]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

Check in wireays under box beam cover, and also back of cam switches (sweep). Look for a screw or a bolt or apiece of metal shorting across terminals.Sounds like instructomat but normally you can not run sweep from sweep run switch only from contactor.Did you take 5 & 6 out of the a & mc box so they do not pick up a ground.Check in back of frameter box at control desk that nothing is shorting against side of box, this gives instructomat signal.Chattering can come from scoring so check qubica side.hope this may help a litlle.
Laurie
Scotland

[Alastair]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

If you removed the a@mc plug and jumped 5&6 on the machine then you will not get a cycle from the cycle button on the control box. Only from the start switch on the cussion, or in your case the trigger beams, (assuming that the start switch is disconnected).

The first thing I would check also would be the C1 plug for bad/burnt pins. Sounds like the bad relay has caused a back lash, and caused this non cycling problem.
Putting a known good chassis on, indicates the problem lies within the machine side, or the machine trigger? Try swopping out camera units with a good pair?
Also possibly check mask unit for grounded out wire. Jump on/off mask switch connections on chassis and remove mask plug (Elco plug in some cases / C23) to illiminate mask.

[wb8yjf]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

The original chassis could have fried C1 pins on the MACHINE side too! You might just want to replace the pins to make sure they aren't fried (the female pins are hard to check w/o removing them)....
Jon [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/usflag.jpg[/img]

[triac]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

Farley,

I suppose anything is possible with a floating ground, but I'm a little stumped about it being in shadow because you usually cannot run the sweep thru the SA when in shadow.

If you suspect it to be in shadow try this;

Originally posted by triac from a similar thread:
The easiest way to determine if you’re stuck in shadow is to pull the thin gray wire off the T2 transformer and tape it off. With this wire pulled, there is no way for the ground signal to get to the logical instruction of the pc board.

The only draw back to pulling this wire is that you will not have shadow (the circuit is completely isolated) and the frame counter at the desk will not count.

BTW if you don’t know where the T2 transformer is it is located under the sweep contactors. It has 5 wires going to it. 2 on the high side and 3 on the low side. The gray wire will be on the low side.

This test is guaranteed to completely isolate the shadow circuit and by far the easiest to do.

Hope this helps,

Triac

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Originally posted by felix from a similar thread:
...Couldn't wait to try this today; And it does work...Just becareful not to pull a spade terminal right out of an All Ready Brittle Transformer;eek!

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[LancerLanesMech]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

That's what I forgot to put in.... I changed all the female AMP sockets in the C1. Well, about 12 of them, the burnt ones and one that the opening was damaged.

Mtdewman, can you elaborate on what sweep relay you are refering to that could be swapped with the 11pin M relay?

I also have been trying to cycle it with the triggering at the camera. I didn't remove the cover of the 6 box to see if the cycle LED was lighting up because I could hear it, same clicking sound it makes when you change from ball 1 to ball 2. Worth a try to check out though.

I'm on my way there now. The machine sits with the 5&amp;6 pink wires in the A&amp;MC box removed so I can tape them together to turn it on and I removed the wires from them that go to the on/off switch in the back panel. I checked for screws nuts ect. that might be shorting anything out in the wireway underneath the chassis where all the terminal blocks are, but I'll double check.

Charley

[triac]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

Charley,

The problem sounds to me like it’s defiantly a short to ground in the low voltage side and not the high voltage side (C1 Plug). If the sweep relay is not pulling in, it’s a low voltage short or break. If it pulls in but no sweep then it’s a break in the high voltage.

You could have a short to ground in the low side that is forcing the logic into instructomat as well as turning on the machine at random.

I would start with one problem at a time by isolating the shadow circuit in the chassis by pulling the gray wire and tape it off. Another thing to look at is the A&amp;MC plug. A defective SA switch will also prevent the machine from cycling.

Good Luck and let us know what you found,

Triac

[Coors]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

try this farley, run a wire from cycle button on the back panel, to the ground strip which is located in the front right of the switch panel if there isnt already. if there is, replace that ground wire from the cycle button to ground in the switch panel. the cycle problem sounds like there is no ground to complete the start cycle.

[Coors]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

or wires 1&amp;2 in the amc box has been pulled out. there should be two wires coming into 1&amp;2 from ball return up front, two wires from Qubica in a blue jacket, and the out going is black and white which goes to the chassis. but that wouldnt explain it not cycling from cycle button. . . i dont think.

[Alan Meyers]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

Charley...The circuit breaker in the control box can cause the "no cycle problem" but sweep will still run normally when brought to 66 degrees, it's a long shot but still a possibility. Don't forget about the sweep run and/or reverse switches. Make sure pins in C2A plug are okay, like Triac says it seems like a low voltage problem.

[LancerLanesMech]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

FOUND IT!! I was so close to it before. OK, on 5&amp;6 in the A&amp;MC box there is a pink wire on one side and the other is a brown lamp cord that comes from front manager control. When scoring was installed the brown wire was removed and hooked up to a piggyback terminal so scoring can turn the machine on and reinstalled. The one on #6 had came off and was against the metal of the box. There was a ground causing instructomat but it wasn't in the pink wires. That box is too small to have that many wires in it, I could barely see that it was off.

I started out by turning on lane 2 in instructomat and ran the sweep to 66 guard and it cycled just like lane 1. So I was still thinking something was grounded causing instructo. Went back to lane 1 and taped off the grey wire from T2 and was hooking up the pink wires back in 5&amp;6 in the A&amp;MC and saw that the brown wire that is piggybacked to the red scoring wire was off and touching the box. Problem solved. Thanks for all of the prompt replies!!!

One other thing I found... On lane one if I over-run the reverse sweep, instead of coming all the way down, it corrects itself and goes back to zero just like the 82-90XL's that I had in Chicago. What is different in this machine that causes this? All the chassis have the same setup, except only about half have pindication conversion, the others are no pind. Anyone know what causes this? I have no idea how many are like this, I'll go through all of them tomorrow. Lane 2 runs all the way down to the pindeck and you have to run it back forward with the run switch.


Charley

[maister]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

Well done. The return to zero is strange and because it is qubica may be different to amf scoring.Normally sweep reverse after a first ball miss or single pin pick up returns to zero.unless off spot switch is activated.82/90XL have automatic sweep reverse programmed thro the mcu and qubica reads this.on 82/70 there is now an off spot automatic sweep reverse kit available.if you manually run sweep reverse too far it starts to run down and and you have to sweep run it back to zero not using the sweep reverse button.Pindication should make no difference to this.Laurie.Scotland.

[LancerLanesMech]

Re: Cycle Problem... HELP!

No, I don't mean the gutter, 7-10 pick off reverse sweep, and not the auto offspot clear feature either. I mean if there's an offspot and you have to go clear it, the sweep is at 1st guard, then you reverse the sweep back to home, if you accidentally over-run it, it goes back to zero instead of going all the way back down to the pindeck. Or if no ball has been thrown, just go and reverse the sweep for about 1 second. It will travel down to the pindeck. 82-90 XL's self correct a reverse sweep over-run and so does my lane 1. Something must be wired different or something is different in the Omega-Tek boards. Not many replies on this, GMAN where ya at???


Charley