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  • sweep motor problems

    [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif[/img] OK here's the deal. I have a house full of 82-70's and the other night one of our machines flipped out. The sweep motor started running backwards(see topic sweep motor running in reverse). Tonight I was planning to check on the reverse switch, which was good by the way, but when I turned on the machine it wouldn't turn either way. It just hummed. I plugged the table power into the sweep motor and it ran fine(not the motor or gearbox). I replaced both caps and still the same. Swapped chassis, same. I checked the voltage at the sweep plug and where it was applying the reverse voltage last night, it now has the correct voltage on the correct pins but the motor just hums. The resistors in the channel are fine. The reverse switch and the run switch are both ok. I'm lost. Either I'm missing something or we have a being from another dimension coming in at night and screwing with our wiring. HELP!!!!
    "When you eliminate the impossibilities, whatever is left, no matter how illogical, must be the answer"

  • #2
    Re: sweep motor problems

    Maybe this might help you, it helped me understand a motor better. This is from one of the guys in here, read the Electrical Help message.

    Every stator has two windings: one for starting and one for running.
    When a motor is turned on, both windings power up, but the START winding needs to turn off before the motor reaches full speed (about 1/10th of a second). This is controlled by the start switch and its operating mechanism called the centrifugal mechanism. The RUN winding stays on after that for as long as power is applied.
    While idle (off), the start switch is in its closed condition by the position of the centrifugal mechanism. As the rotor begins to spin, centrifugal force pulls the mech's disc down and away from the switch, opening the start winding circuit before full speed.
    If this does not happen and the switch stays closed, the start winding stays on with the run winding, and the two different resistances fight each other, causing the motor to run noisy and eventually heat up. On the opposite hand, if the contacts in the start winding don't make contact, thereby not allowing the start winding to turn on in the first place, the motor will not start at all and just hum, heat up, and hopefully pop the thermal overload (klixon).

    Now here's the meat of it all:
    Each winding (start & run) has two wires, just like any household device, to provide voltage (hot) and a return (neutral). Therefore, for both windings in your stator, you have four wires coming out of the windings. There may be two additional wires coming out, one of which goes to the klixon. If this is so, just know that the klixon wire that seems to go into the winding is not really connected to the winding , but just tied to them and passing around to the other side of the stator. This is done merely as a convenience by the manufacturer. These klixon wires are usually brown, although one of them may be purple.
    Unless your stator has been rewound locally, in which case any colors may have been used, the standard is BLACK & RED for the start winding and YELLOW & BLUE (or GREEN) for the run winding.
    One more thing: If your motors still run two switches inside the end bell, one is the the main switch (it has the terminals and the studs on it) and the other is an auxiliary switch (just one terminal and a wire, no studs).

    OK. Here we go:

    On the main board:
    Terminal #1:
    Red wire from the receptacle
    Red wire from itself (with round ring terminal)

    Terminal #2:
    White wire from receptacle
    Green Wire from run winding

    Terminal #3:
    Yellow wire from the run winding
    Yellow wire from the receptacle
    Purple wire from the klixon

    Terminal #4
    Black Wire from the receptacle
    Black wire from the start winding

    Terminal #6
    Red wire from the start winding
    Black wire from itself (tab at switch)
    Black wire with ring terminal from aux. switch

    Connect with wire nut:
    Brown wire fron klixon
    Brown wire from receptacle

    If the auxiliary switch has bee eliminated, just disregard the wires from it to the main switch, but cut off the black one that is a permanent part of the main.

    If yours seems to vary from this, re-post and I'll watch for you.

    Best of Luck!


    • #3
      Re: sweep motor problems

      Thanks for the info chick, but my problem isn't with the motor. When I plugged the table power into the sweep motor it eliminated the motor and gearbox as suspect.
      "When you eliminate the impossibilities, whatever is left, no matter how illogical, must be the answer"


      • #4
        Re: sweep motor problems

        The fault must be in your start/break circuit between motor plug, CA1, control box and wire way.
        A light running motor can start without the start/break circuit sometimes and will run in the direction of the least resistance(mostly helped by gravity).
        I should start with changing out the caps and after that go through all the wires that are in the start/break circuit. This can be a pain in the a** but you will learn from it too.
        Good Luck,
        So it goes.


        • #5
          Re: sweep motor problems

          Since you’ve checked the obvious, I would replace the sockets in the C1 and do continuity check on you sweep cable on every wire while wiggling it. My guess is that it’s in your sweep cable somewhere.

          I’ve never heard of a sweep running in reverse, but evidently it’s possible. H*ll I never heard of a table shaft breaking until I read it on this sight, then I had 2 break in one year.
          That’s what I like about this sight. It prepares you for the worst with solutions and forces me to step up my preventive maintenance a notch.



          • #6
            Re: sweep motor problems

            I'd also try replacing the 'sweep run' switch & maybe even the black sweep (I/O) switch. Other than that I'd say your problem is either in the cable or wireway.

            Does anything different happen when you engage the sweep contacts by hand?


            • #7
              Re: sweep motor problems

              In the other post, you didn't mention if you have a reversing relay in your setup (for automatic sweep reverse controlled by the scoring system).

              That sounds like the problem - first it was stuck the wrong way, now it doesn't work at all.

              If you don't have such a thing, then I'm confused why your start circuit would just magically reverse itself - yet still obey the manual reversing switch - (without a reversing relay involved it would require you to actually physically swap two wires around - not something that happens by itself).

              But with your latest problem, I would agree with Lampie that you go through each part of the start circuit bit by bit, eliminating things.

              When you checked the motor cable, did you check both the run winding output and the start output separately? You need to check both, because either (run or start) being missing will cause the motor to not start. If the capacitors have failed open, then you'll get no start winding power (and some very quiet humming usually). If the capacitors have failed shorted, you'll get major humming in the motor (very loud usually).

              BTW, The sweep run switch only activates the sweep contactor and the black sweep power switch only disables the contactor power. You haven't mentioned whether the contactor is energising or not. I assumed it was the motor that was humming, which means the contactor must be working, but could you confirm that?

              Good luck.



              • #8
                Re: sweep motor problems

                It does sound like the cable but try this. Replace the white circuit breaker on the rear control box. When they go bad they can cause some weird things to happen. I would never believe it untill I did it and my problem went away. Just a thought.


                • #9
                  Re: sweep motor problems

                  "In the other post, you didn't mention if you have a reversing relay in your setup (for automatic sweep reverse controlled by the scoring system)."

                  Cna you expand on this...Where would the relay be located and does Qubica control sweep reverse?
                  Say what you mean and mean what you say!


                  • #10
                    Re: sweep motor problems


                    Alls you have to do is read the other thread. I explained that the reverse relay (if you have one) is located in the mechanics control box. Not all 8270’s have them. It depends on the type of chassis and scoring system you have.

                    If you do have this relay, it is very possible that it is creating both the problems you guys are describing. I did some experiments a long time ago, and I remember pulling the relay disconnecting wires and other experiments to see what the limitations were with this relay. One of the experiments was that the motor KX would pop every time.

                    Let us know if you have this relay before we get into irrelevant details that wont solve your problems.

                    Just My Opinion (JMO)…In the future you guys might not want to start two threads with the same problem because it makes it more difficult troubleshooting to keep going back and forth between two threads, instead of just scrolling up and down in chronological sequence.



                    • #11
                      Re: sweep motor problems

                      Might seem obvious, but have you tried replacing the C1 pins on the machine side as well as the chassis? It's hard to know what condition the pins are actually in w/o poping them out & giving them the "eye"
                      I've had enough of hope & chains.


                      • #12
                        Re: sweep motor problems

                        No I haven't taken c1 apart yet. That's on the agenda for tonight. We do have a reverse relay in the control box. I checked it out already. I'm going to check the plug and wire-way and also c1 tonight. I'll let you guys know if that's the problem. Thanks for all the input. And yes it was the motor humming pretty loudly.
                        "When you eliminate the impossibilities, whatever is left, no matter how illogical, must be the answer"


                        • #13
                          Re: sweep motor problems


                          Try swapping that reverse relay with another machine. Even though the contacts are not closed…sometimes a carbon trail will develop inside the relay causing a short. Also, check the little 12v power wires have a good contact to the socket.



                          • #14
                            Re: sweep motor problems

                            Originally posted by Andrew:
                            BTW, The sweep run switch only activates the sweep contactor and the black sweep power switch only disables the contactor power.
                            <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Andrew, You're right on both counts. However, they're in the circuit &amp; most of the obvious has been checked. Beowulfs' signature quote may have a typo in it but it's still a true statement. I've seen stranger things happen with the electrical on these things.


                            • #15
                              Re: sweep motor problems



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