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  • AMF Machines

    I'm just a bowler, and I found myself wondering about something this morning. On the old AMFs with the 5 board chassis and table wiring, how did the pinsetter know how many pins were knocked down on the second ball because the table never comes down? I hope you guys can help out, like I said, I'm just a bowler but really want to learn a lot about these machines.

  • #2
    Re: AMF Machines

    Aside from GS pinsetters, no machine knows how many pins were knocked down on second ball. This is the job of the scorer scanner/camera. The pinsetter could care less as it goes thru the second ball cycle regardless of what is left. On a first ball cycle, however, it needs to know only one thing: To run a Strike cycle or Standing pins cycle. To know what pins were left on the first ball (AMF machine speaking) is just cosmetic to light up the proper indicators on the old pindicator masks. With the introduction of interfaced scoring, all of these are accomplished by the scorer.
    "Where are we going, and why are we in a hand basket?"

    --Kat

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    • #3
      Re: AMF Machines

      Well said Kat, the machines (as you mentioned aside from the GS series) have no idea whats left after the 2nd ball is thrown, it will run the same cycle reguardless. Sweep whats left (if anything) and spot a new rack. First ball is the only time the machine knows if/what pins are left. With MP chassis and SS's with expanders the chassis will recieve a signal from the scoring (don't work with true MP's so I'm not real sure what exactly they do) but with SS's and expanders it's told either Strike (so I can light the strike light, sweep the deck and spot a new rack) or the amount of pins left standing. so for example if someone gets 4 pins the 4 and 2 light would come on on the expander (indicating 6 pins left standing, there are 4 lights on ours, 1,2,4 and 8) The other thing it will do is if a gutter is thrown or a corner pin is picked off on first ball, the scoring tells it there was either 0 or 1 pin knocked over (which is either the 7 or 10) and it will just reverse the sweep back up and go to 2nd ball. But as Kat said the machine never knows whats left standing on 2nd ball, only the scoring so it can mark the frame correctly.
      All I want in life is to turn wrenches and climb around pinsetters/pinspotters again :/

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      • #4
        Re: AMF Machines

        i would have to look into this before i say 'it definatley exhisted'but i believe there was a system available for the AMF machines similar to that of the 'pin detect' brunswick system, wherin on the second ball it would feel for pins, if none were standing it would simply shuttle a set thru to the pincups, the shifter will open the respot cells and it will spot but if there were pins standing it would respot them without using the sweep to determine what was standing, sweep the deck then spot 10 pins, i dont know if i have read that this had been done or read that it was a possibility, i just seem to remember it from somewhere.

        dont quote me, but for some reason its in my head
        Want your old pins collecting anywhere in the UK? email me on jezsmith@aol.com

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        • #5
          Re: AMF Machines

          Originally posted by jez:
          i would have to look into this before i say 'it definatley exhisted'but i believe there was a system available for the AMF machines similar to that of the 'pin detect' brunswick system, wherin on the second ball it would feel for pins, if none were standing it would simply shuttle a set thru to the pincups, the shifter will open the respot cells and it will spot but if there were pins standing it would respot them without using the sweep to determine what was standing, sweep the deck then spot 10 pins, i dont know if i have read that this had been done or read that it was a possibility, i just seem to remember it from somewhere.

          dont quote me, but for some reason its in my head
          <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sounds interesting! Never heard of a system like this myself, if ya do find any info please share. Sounds cool! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
          All I want in life is to turn wrenches and climb around pinsetters/pinspotters again :/

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          • #6
            Re: AMF Machines

            You hit it right on the head! With the 82-70 A or B machines and early scoring, the table descended on second ball and detected the pins standing. But I heard two different versions of what happens next.
            A. The table descended only far enough for the fingers to close around the heads of the pins. This was accomplished by either restricting the table so it went into overtravel, or by stopping it at around 150 degrees electrically (reason for the TC cam?) and then reversing it. There was a silver relay box mounted on the front of those machines for this purpose.
            B. Just as jez sez.

            82-30's at one time had a solenoid operated star latch in each respot cell that would latch when the table had to pick up the pins, or not latch if the table was only detecting them. Experimental, I believe, and useful for setting up spares.

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            • #7
              Re: AMF Machines

              I worked for AMF for 26 years as a field service rep. and have never seen the extra table run.

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              • #8
                Re: AMF Machines

                Originally posted by Tall Paul:
                I worked for AMF for 26 years as a field service rep. and have never seen the extra table run.
                <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Would have been with the original Brunswick Automatic Scorer. They required the machine to feel for pins on second ball to get pin count.
                -- Larry

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                • #9
                  Re: AMF Machines

                  i still work with amf and have not seen a second table run.Only on Brunswick pinspotters.Even before automatic scoring bowlers had to count the standing pins before the sweep took them out.
                  maister

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                  • #10
                    Re: AMF Machines

                    Alright, the reason I was wondering about this is because when I first started bowling in the early/mid 90s as a kid, we have 82-70s and an old scoring system. All I remember is that it had B/W monitors, no overheads, and was painted the same orange color as the tube sweeps and the backs of the pinspotters. I do remember it had a little white button on the back that cycled the machine ignoring pin count. We always used that as our "10th Frame Button". I wish I could remember what type or scoring that was. Any help? But the weird thing is that I don't remember having any cameras or scanners. I was wondering how that scoring system knew how many pins fell.

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                    • #11
                      Re: AMF Machines

                      Sounds like good ol magic score to me... The sensors or lasers or whatever they're called (not too familiar with magicscore) were actually in the kickbacks... and they scanned across the pindeck somehow, someone I'm sure can give ya a better explanation, but thats the basic idea. No camera as you mentioned, you could even see the stuff in the kickback if ya looked closely, looked like a thick black line from the foul line
                      All I want in life is to turn wrenches and climb around pinsetters/pinspotters again :/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: AMF Machines

                        They were called arrays. They were ultrasonic. They were an enormous pain in the ass. So was the giantic BCC at the front desk. Of course, now that i have NEW scoring, riddled with software bugs and prone to just wipe sh&amp;^ out at the most inopportune times, maybe it wasnt so bad....
                        The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it which the merely improbable lacks.

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                        • #13
                          Re: AMF Machines

                          We have that system. The BCC was replaced with your standard home computer &amp; printer. I have very few troubles with it. You just dont have all the bells &amp; whistles the new scoring has. But I like the K.I.S.S attitude.
                          Even a old dog can bury a bone

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                          • #14
                            Re: AMF Machines

                            I don't remember what the control computer looked like, but I do recall a large silver box with switches on it behind the control counter. I think this is what they used to turn the lanes on with? I wish someone had a picture of that old thing.

                            As for the system, I remember it being much less buggy than the current Dacos system. Maybe we should've kept it. It might not interface with expander cards, but I don't believe the center has those installed anyways. All we have is a doulbe cycle in the 10th and in no-tap.

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                            • #15
                              Re: AMF Machines

                              yes, magic score was awesome, to me [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] . and personally i liked the array assemblies. as the cells popped the rivets from flying pins, particularly the rear, id just fill the holes with TP and screw them back in. never touched an array assy in several years toward the end.

                              and old magic score will interface for short cycles.

                              and at the desk, to clear the lanes after bowling,
                              'reset' 'G' 'C' 'Execute'
                              and of course slippin your finger through the grill in the back of the console to put it on manual and give yourself the First nine strikes without the tattl tale correction dash, but i never did that

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