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florecent lights & MP chassis

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  • florecent lights & MP chassis

    Back in October when I had a problem with "acts like foul", which I no longer have due to all of your help and Jim Dorson nailed it, (thanks Paul). Lafarge stated that the RF from the lights can influence the chassis if you do not have the covers on them. The ceiling is very low and the lights are less than 6 feet from the chassis and I'm experiencing empty deck respots on SOME machines just as Lafarge said. I know the AMP plugs are good on both the machine side and the chassis side as well as relay's and contactors. I remember King stating that MP's are "fickle" and perhaps he is right because other things with some of these Mark5 boards are happening like double shuttle once in a while and train wrecks for no apparent reason. I will put the covers back on and see what happens. Any input would be much appreciated. Bill
    Yeah but, We've always done it that way.

  • #2
    Re: florecent lights & MP chassis

    I would swap boards and chassis on machines until you have the "right combo".

    When you find a chassis - board combination that runs correctly together on a problem machine, put the lane # on the chassis with a sharpie, and dont mess with that machine/chassis/board combo with a number on it.

    Keep going across the house until you have all the board/chassis/machine combinations that work well together.
    MP chassis -

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    • #3
      Re: florecent lights & MP chassis

      Not really sure on that... electrical noise can cause problems with circuitry, no doubt... Just key up a Nextel too close to some computer and you'll see it plainly... but noise from lighting affecting the electronics in the general area seems a bit of a longshot to me...

      Noise from lights on the ceiling affecting the chassis? I would say probably not, unless your ceiling was 4" above the chassis top... and even then it would be a 'maybe'. Some older mechanics used to say that the chassis lids needed to be on because lights affected the old 5-board setup... due to the light-driven optocouplers on it, but that also proved to be false. As long as the phenolic block was mounted over the neons, it wasn't affected.

      Ethernet cabling for computers has a spec that says 3' from flourescent lighting or ballasted/transformered items, to prevent noise from being picked up by the wiring. Network signals are a lot more susceptible to noise than a machine chassis (which has 2 RF noise-producing transformers, 2 sets of contactor coils, and 8 sets of noisy contactor contacts inside it, and a noise-producing motor stator almost right in front of it). I'd be comfortable saying as long as your lights are at least 1.5-2 feet away from the chassis, ambient noise is a nonissue.

      If you ever want to check for common RF noise, it's easy enough to do... get a little portable radio and set it to AM. Tune it to a low "static" channel, and then a high "static" channel (I.E. No music)... you will hear a steady ssshhhhhhhhh of noise... if you hear any continuous buzzing or intermittent clicking/popping, it's picking up noise. Move away from the location and keep listening. If the noise goes away, it was in a noisy area... if it remains, than the radio may have that particular noise from it's circuitry, it's a larger 'ambient' noise condition that is inherent to the whole building or possibly the whole area (like if there are high-tension lines nearby). You can test it to see that it really works... go near a lightswitch with it and flick the switch on and off a couple times... you will hear a popping sound that will correspond to the opening and closing of the switch contacts.
      <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

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      • #4
        Re: florecent lights &amp; MP chassis

        King-I will try that starting with splitting up the boards to a known good running machine. What is jeat?
        Yeah but, We've always done it that way.

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        • #5
          Re: florecent lights &amp; MP chassis

          Thanks 'G' Bill
          Yeah but, We've always done it that way.

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          • #6
            Re: florecent lights &amp; MP chassis

            Your chassis probably doesn’t have anything to do with double shuttling. Other than the solenoid engaging, the rest is mechanical. Is it doubling certain pins? Or is it shuttling on respot (which could be the chassis, but this would also engage the table drive eccentric, and the table would try to go all the way to the deck)

            I have to wonder, are the empty deck respot on the same few lanes? Or they random. If it is the same machines, and the same few pins, or at least one common pin, I would suggest to check the respot cell gaps. If the chassis thought there were no pins, it would have spotted a full rack. I wouldn’t start with the chassis on this one.

            If it does turn out to be electrical, rather than mechanical, King's idea is more than sound. Mark 5's shouldn’t be going out quite yet, all the boards I had problems were mark 3 or prior. When they do start to go out, you will get more 'lost program' problems than anything else. (Have to hit program zero, everything works for a while, then locks up again.

            Let us know, I am interested to see where this goes.

            Paul

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            • #7
              Re: florecent lights &amp; MP chassis

              Paul; We have vector scoring and have removed the table wiring. Some of the chassis have older boards than mark 5, probably mark 3. I will check tomorrow to see which ones they are and if those are the problem ones. We keep log sheets on the back of the machines. What really worries me is the occasional "train wreck"--could be cam micro's--not all of them have been replaced. When I replace them, I replace all six.
              Yeah but, We've always done it that way.

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              • #8
                Re: florecent lights &amp; MP chassis

                I am not familar with "train wreck". but would guess you mean interlock (sweep and table shut down to avoid colision)....lol, that is a clever name, never though of it what way, but it fits well... where do these happen?? If you find a lot of respot cycles with the sweep at the 456 line, and the table comming down, that is a good indicator of bad timing, and your cam switches would have to be pretty bad to cause that. It would be a good inicator of a bad board. (follow Kings advice here, swap it and see if it follows) I have not seen many cam switches that have been bad, and that is over 16 years. Most often, they are just out of adjustment. yes, they can go bad, but it is not common. Keep us posted!!

                Paul

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                • #9
                  Re: florecent lights &amp; MP chassis

                  A train wreck is when it tries to spot ten on ten or fails to sweep and tries to spot resulting in broken cups. Must have happened alot before I got there last spring because I have 5 or 6 welded X frames. I guess Stahl's now sells a kit so it will black out like a Brunswick...Bill PS forgot to mention it has happened to me when I was not watching, of course.
                  Yeah but, We've always done it that way.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: florecent lights &amp; MP chassis

                    a lot of info here from you guys, well done.
                    can you take out the aps plug from the chassis and run it ok. if there is no problem then scoring is causing the problem.
                    however i think as others say, double shuttling ,if all pins, then spotting latch or eccentric or solenoid areas. if only one or a few pins then definitely mechanical. lids on the chassis are there to protect a tech falling into the chassis and to keep dust and dropped tools out.if something goes bang then it is contained.when mark 5 boards are breaking down in mp chassis they sometimes do not show a problem until they warm up and then strange things happen.
                    "train wreck" thats a new one and i agree i think spotting on standing pins, suggests latch sticking or eccentric drive.
                    good luck.
                    maister

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                    • #11
                      Re: florecent lights &amp; MP chassis

                      have you checked the stop for the shuttle? does it happen every frame. i had this on one lane, found the stop was in enough to allow the machine to shuttle the pins into the cups but still allow the respot cycle.

                      i get a few train wrecks everyday, but we are still running the 5 boards and table plugs. damn cell wires when they come off.

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                      • #12
                        Re: florecent lights &amp; MP chassis

                        we have eliminated all the table wiring, the machines are basically dumb now, they get 3 commands from the qubica box, which are on, cycle and reset (strike), the only time we get trainwrecks are when a respot cell is tight or the spotting latch sticks down, both are extremley rare, maybe once every couple of months

                        (one of the cell connections is grounded inside the chassis)
                        Want your old pins collecting anywhere in the UK? email me on jezsmith@aol.com

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