Backend motors and C1 plugs

[John Isbell]

Hey guys,

I've been toying with this idea, did it on one machine for fun, and I am wondering if any of you out there have done this.

We all know that the C1 pins for the BE motor cook on a regular basis, some guys use gold pins others have a different fix.

I used a plug in type relay placed in the rear control box, we will call it BE2 and it had a 115 volt coil, I used the 115 volt output from the chassis BE relay to activate the relay coil of BE2, then ran a separate 115 volt feed to the contacts of the BE2 relay, then to the BE motor.

This took the high current away from the C1 plug as it only turning on a relay coil.

The BE2 relay contacts with much more substantial wire termination carry the higher current thereby saving the C1 plug.

I realize that I could have used a different coil voltage for the BE2 relay and did some wiring mods to accomodate that, my concern was swapping chassis, I did not one machine different from the rest for obvious reasons.

Your thoughts, has anyone else done this or something else?

John

[Lafarge..]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

John, one place I had took and made the connection with just two wires going into the chassis with spade termanals so that you could plug and un plug the wires when you moved the chassis. I realy did't like it but it worked without burning up the c1 plug.

[Kat]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

John:

Very nice idea indeed for dealing with one of the shortcomings with 82/70s; cheesy connectors for carrying high current loads. I'll probably use a plug-in relay base in the BE box as well.

One must be sure to train staff on isolating any problems of loss of backend motor problems by first checking BE relay in chassis, BE2 relay in BE box, and finally 110V output to the motor. Actually, checking would start at the motor working backwards. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] One would also have to check to ensure that the switched motor HV power source coming from TS-18 (Main Hot Buss) and TS-17/TS-1A1 (Neutral Buss) is also satisfied.

Again, great tip.

[John Isbell]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

Kat,

I see many mechanics smack the C1 to get a BE motor back on, then I go get my crimper, wire and pins and watch them do a practical test. LOL

[triac]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

I don’t know if it’s the high current that’s burning up the BE pins or the constant high current combining with vibration. After all, the input and output pins to the combos don’t burn up as fast.

I do get more life out of the gold pins than the tin ones. Before the gold came around...I used the empty slot next to it and ran an extra pin and wires, which doubled the life.

Haven’t done this with the gold pins as they seem to last just as long (if not longer) as the doubled up tin pins.

Triac

[John Isbell]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

Good point triac,

The female pin seems to be the culprit most of the time, that usually fry's the male.

Boy that is a fun subject when I have female mechanics in my class. LOL

Could be that most BE motors are not quite up to specs after the years, dirty, extra load on the motors ect.. never put an amp recorder on one for any amount of time.

JI

[triac]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

Originally posted by John Isbell:
The female pin seems to be the culprit most of the time, that usually fry's the male.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep noticed that too.

That’s why I have dedicated chassis. When I pull a chassis and it needs any male pins, I also replace the corresponding female pins on the machine before reinstalling on the machine it was pulled from.

Triac

[Kat]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

Originally posted by John Isbell:
Kat,

I see many mechanics smack the C1 to get a BE motor back on,

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've always liked firework shows. Nothing like having to re-do the whole C1 after that.

The best is when mechanics use a jumper cord and plug the BE motor into a wall socket. I've visited places where this "temporary fix" turned out to be a machine retrofit of sorts.

[wb8yjf]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

I did a test on B.E. motors when I was with the big A &amp; they draw aprox 6-8 Amps when they first fire up (not for long, but u get the point)...if you have a cooked C1 pin on the chassis, go the extra step &amp; replace the female pin on the C1 machine end...It is also nice when the guys who don't know better, don't swap chassis all over the house! A certain local 56 laner had that problem...I spent a month or so going thru their C1's (both ends) to get things back to "normal" and before I was halfway thru the house the chassis swappers moved about 1/2 of them all over the place...now a moot point. Jeeeeezzzzzz....

[TheGMan143]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

I did toy with the idea of using a relay/contactor located in the backend control box to run the pit motor, after having to replace both sides of a C1 that decided to celebrate the 4th a little early.

After I started thinking about it, I realized I was just pi$$ed because I had to redo all those pins... in reality, I can count on ONE HAND (with fingers to spare) the times when I actually had to do any major surgery because of a backend motor burning up the pins in over 15 years... and then decided that it just wasn't worth it to buy all the parts and retrofit 30 machines because of a blowout every few years. We service our chassis regularly, and the plugs are part of chassis/machine PM... if they're caught with just a couple black marks on individual pins, you replace just those (both sides), and it's good to go for quite a few more years.

[Ted]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

There are soooooo many chassis changes as a first option to troubleshoot a problem, I feel this compromises the pin connections as much as anything.
A good high-voltage vs. low voltage troubleshooting inservice to the back-end folks might alleviate - or at least minimize - pin contact failures.
If you look at the evolution of hign voltage connections in the 30's to 70's to 90's, it is apparent to me that the engineers recognized frequent chassis changes as potential load specific contact problems.
The specification for the silver/nickel pins is well within the pin load limits as designed - then take into account frequent plug/unplug - plug/unplug - plug/unplug or C1A, and you can realize a diminishing load capability of the pins in C1A, as the nickel coating, inadvertant female contact spreading, etc, will lead to problems.
In my thinking, has anyone ever changed a pin on a chassis -or C1A plug- where the chassis has been on 'that' machine "forever".
Check it out

[willey]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

Been doing this for many years in all the AMF centers in Sydney.

Frank.

[frosty 1]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

12 years ago we separated the pins in the top row of the c-1 plugs. We also removed the metal angle that screws to the chassis just above the c-1. We now have Bowl tronics setter savers and was wondering why couldn't we run 110 straight to setter savers eliminating the chassis &amp; c-1 wiring.( the setter saver doesn't turn the B/E moyor on until the sweep motor runs the first time and turns the motor off after 1 1/2 minutes of inactivity

[rrev]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

Putting the BE relay into the rear control box has been a common mod. down here for a number of years. Some guys just shift the existing BE relay out of the chassis while others use a plug in (like a M or M2) relay. To avoid running a second 110V circuit to the rear box though, most guys choose to run the BE control voltage (24VAC) to a 24V relay. The C1 terminals will last even longer as well.

The only down side is that you have to convert all your chassis to outsmart those "chassi-swappers" [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

Ray

[John Isbell]

Re: Backend motors and C1 plugs

Hi Ray,

That's pretty good, run the BE control wires through the C1.

You get a free pint or two.

CS C1 saver kit........

G'day

John