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  • Solid State Chasis no cycle

    sorry for all the confusion, this is current as of 9-22
    just feeling my way out like a blind man at an orgy.

  • #2
    Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

    Originally posted by J-man:
    ok so been reading alot over the months, and just tried a seaech and came out empty handed. now this si obviously electrical but need to know if anyone can help me narrow the search.

    first problem (all of these follow chasis)
    turn on machine and main breaker on CB flippes off (nasty humming implieng short)

    Have a look in the area of the primary transformer (T1) and rectifier... sometimes it gets bent down from chassis moving or vibration and causes a short. Pull the bottom off the chassis & make sure a screw, nut or whatnot didn't get stuck under the board.

    next chasis, when i allow any power to chasis sweep motor engages, sweep motor makes a growling noise, throws breaker and the whole time sweep moved maybe 6 inches.

    A miswired contactor comes to mind first of all. Go through the contactor connections and the contact pads with a fine-toothed comb. Disconnect the sweep plug & see if the contactor is pulling in when you power up the machine, or if it's trying to run without the contactor.

    third chasis, no power to pit moter and no cycle.

    That is gonna need some more info... A bad T1 will do that, as will a bad C1 plug. You have ruled out C1 pins, but the T1 may still be acting up.

    [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img] now with all the chasis i have replaced all pins (male and female) followed all wires, reslodered all points and tried all m-tek boards in other chasis with no problems. all chasis have bowl-tronics switches. please help.

    thanks, Jeremy
    <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

      thanks GmAn, i will keep you updated as best as i can
      just feeling my way out like a blind man at an orgy.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

        Go G! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
        I've had enough of hope & chains.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

          Are we talking about the main circuit breaker on the wall or the one on the mechanics control box.

          If we are talking the one on the wall then I doubt your T1 is bad since it is protected by the F1 fuse. The T2 is protected by the F2. Providing you are running 3 amp fuses in them, they should blow first. If you have weak wall breakers put a fast acting fuse in the F1 spot and the fuse should defiantly blow before the breaker…if so then do a continuity check on the primary windings and compare the values to a good one.

          Some high voltage items (that will trip wall breaker) that are not protected by fuses are the Pin Deck Light (&amp; mask halo light), BE contacts, and Spot Relay Contacts, Sweep/Table Contacts. If you are talking about the wall breaker look around these areas. If you’re talking about the one on the mechanics control box, that’s a whole different problem.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

            thankx triac i will look closer, i still have not made much progress
            just feeling my way out like a blind man at an orgy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

              Firstly, change the M and spot relays with new ones (or at least known good ones), and the three fuses (#1, 2 and 3).

              If you have little circuit breakers instead of fuses in the chassis, then check each of them by removing one wire from them and using a continuity tester.

              Also, when doing these tests, start by removing all motor plugs and the pin deck light.

              First case:
              I assume you are actually talking about the breaker on the BE control box (you said "on CB", which I interpret as "on control box"), but correct me if I'm wrong (and follow Triac's good advice otherwise).

              This CB can be tripped by three things: 150V rail, manager control circuit, or safety switch (CIS) if you have one.

              Do your machines have the safety (CIS) switch? It's sole purpose in life is to trip the breaker on the BE control box, so if you have one, it's definitely a starting point. Check the operation of the switches. Check (with power OFF) continuity (or lack thereof) while the switch is in either position. If you have two safety switches (in cover for C plugs and big red push button on wireway) then obviously check both.

              If you have Omega-Tech boards (is that what you meant by "m-tek?) then you don't use the 150V rail, but if your chassis still contains Capacitor 'CP3', then it could cause a short in the 150V rail. Check CP3 with a multi-meter for a short (or remove it altogether seeing it's not required with Omega-Tech boards). Also check the resistor on it. The diode connected to it probably won't cause a short unless it has fallen off and is touching something - so check that too.

              The manager control circuit can be tested by removing M2 relay and attempting to start the machine. It won't start (because M2 is missing) but if T2 is shorting you will find out (though as Triac mentioned, F2 protects this, so it's not a likely candidate).

              If you have M relays with push buttons (we have a few - they are very handy), then remove both M and M2 relays and put a push-button relay into M2. When you press it, T1 is energised which powers the Omega-tech boards. Since M is missing, the contactor supply will be disconnected.

              By removing components of the system and activating parts of it, you are eliminating certain things, so hopefully you might get some insight into where the short is occurring.

              Let us know any observations you make (it will help us help you track down the problem).

              Second case:
              Basically what G said. Do you have solid state contactors? If so, that may affect this (not sure - I don't have them).

              I would have suspected the sweep motor capacitors (in the wireway), but you said you moved the chassis around, so it can't be that.

              Remove all motors plugs (particularly sweep in this case). Turn off sweep switch (in control box). Power up machine. Sine the sweep motor is unplugged nothing should happen.

              Now turn on sweep switch. Does the sweep contactor engage? If not, that's good (cos it shouldn't). If it does, then something's wrong with the contactor circuit or other input circuits - let us know and we'll follow that line.

              Now press sweep run switch. If the contactor engages, then the contactor power circuit is fine, so the problem is the motor circuit.

              Since you already eliminated the machine wiring by moving the chassis around, you need to now check the contactor's contacts (for a dropped brake/upper contact especially) or the contactor wiring. The easiest way to check the wiring is to get another (good!) chassis and compare them both on the bench, wire-by-wire.

              Third case:
              The main question is whether anything else runs other than pit and sweep.

              Check the following:
              1. Are the lights on on the mask unit? If not, forget the rest of the questions and post us another message (and we'll follow that line).
              2. Does sweep run (plug it back in) with sweep run switch or SA cam? If so, T1 primary and secondary are okay, but something more incidious is wrong (possibly two parallel problems).

              If sweep doesn't run with SWS or SA, but mask lights are on, then T1 primary is okay (because the board is powered), but T1 secondary (green) is dodgy (because contactors have no power). Check wiring from Fuse #3 to T1 (green) and to C2A plug. And from M relay #9 and #11 to T1 (other green), BE relay and C2A plug respectively. You are looking for broken joints or broken wires (use a continuity tester on the lengths of wires).

              Let us know what you find.

              Hope that helps.

              Cheers,
              Andrew.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

                Originally posted by Andrew:
                Firstly, change the M and spot relays with new ones (or at least known good ones), and the three fuses (#1, 2 and 3).


                Also, when doing these tests, start by removing all motor plugs and the pin deck light.

                First case:
                I assume you are actually talking about the breaker on the BE control box (you said "on CB", which I interpret as "on control box"), but correct me if I'm wrong (and follow Triac's good advice otherwise).

                If you have Omega-Tech boards (is that what you meant by "m-tek?)

                The manager control circuit can be tested by removing M2 relay and attempting to start the machine. It won't start (because M2 is missing) but if T2 is shorting you will find out (though as Triac mentioned, F2 protects this, so it's not a likely candidate).

                If you have M relays with push buttons (we have a few - they are very handy), then remove both M and M2 relays and put a push-button relay into M2. When you press it, T1 is energised which powers the Omega-tech boards. Since M is missing, the contactor supply will be disconnected.


                Let us know what you find.

                Hope that helps.

                Cheers,
                Andrew.
                <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ok so i used a rubber band on M and removed M2
                problem is still there, it is not using switch to run sweep, i am going to look for crossed wires or open grounds in chasis.

                a quick overview, a moment of your time please, when i started there was only 4 out of 16 lanes operational due to sabatoge and little fatigue. Thanks to all of your help i have 14 lanes back up and running good. i am still a beginner, and would like to extend my grattitude to you all.
                Sincerely, Jeremy
                just feeling my way out like a blind man at an orgy.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

                  Had a problem like the first one. Would make a buzzing noise and blow the CB on the control panel, it was a bad diode under the CP3 in the chassis.If you have Omega Tech Boards you can just cut it off because it is bypassed by the board.
                  Needs more duct tape.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

                    With M2 removed, and M still in, then only the manager control circuit is involved.

                    Without M2, T1 is without power so no board power, contactor power, 150 rail, mask lights.

                    Also, you don't need to rubber-band the M relay - since the circuit will turn it on for you. (If you were doing the other test with the M relay removed and the M2 in, then you would need to rubber band the M2).

                    Try these things:
                    1. Remove the omega tek board and the spot relay (neither are required to turn M on). Still tripping the CB?
                    2. Turn off the mask switch. This should remove power to the M relay but it will still supply power to T2 primary. Still tripping the CB?
                    3. Check pins on M relay plug for touching (especially near pins 2 and 10).

                    Hope that helps,
                    Andrew.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

                      ok so i have given up (on the immeadiate ressurection) on the chasis blowing breaker on CB. i have put up a good fight unfortunantley the chasis put up a better one. that and i found 6 more chasis that were tucked away.

                      many of the chasis i found are missing a whole butt load of wires.
                      i have already re-wired two of them,

                      the one i have gotten closest to working,
                      turns on pit motor, allows electricity to get to motors (when i acuate switch) and even turns on the pin light and ball return. so far so good : )

                      i cannot get machine to cycle at all, and this machine everytime i run the table it actuates shuttle to drop pins into cups [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]

                      thanks again for all your help. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]
                      just feeling my way out like a blind man at an orgy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

                        It's a pity you had to quit on the other problem, but I guess knowing when to quit is a trait of a wise person. I rarely know when to quit [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] .

                        The fact that you've had to rewire the whole chassis after having a lot of it wires missing makes the diagnosis more difficult. But we like a challenge.

                        No cycle: The first thing to determine is if the board is getting power:
                        1. Do the mask lights work (1st/2nd ball)?
                        2. Does SA run the sweep? (this relies on board power)
                        3. Does TA1 run the table? (this doesn't rely on board power)

                        Always spots: I assume then that the spot solenoid is always engaging when the table contactor engages? How are you running the table? Does it do that if you manually activate the contactor? The spot relay is probably mis-wired. Does removing the spot relay change the behaviour?

                        Andrew.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

                          Find the clown who sabotaged the stuff and pound the **** outta him! :p

                          BTW, a bad KX relay can cause the CB to turn off slowly (silver relay located on the motherboard - not used - it was for the sparemaker computer)...
                          I've had enough of hope & chains.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

                            ill give it a try thanks.

                            as for quiting its more of on the back burner for now, running out of hair to pull out. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]
                            just feeling my way out like a blind man at an orgy.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Solid State Chasis no cycle

                              [QUOTE]Originally posted by wb8yjf:
                              [QB] Find the clown who sabotaged the stuff and pound the **** outta him! :p
                              ----------------------------------------------
                              He must have been a disgruntled smoker [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img]

                              Comment

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