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  • Another national motor "Q"

    Hi all. What can all cause a table motor to start to run slow??? E.G... slows down to point where sweep will hit head pin during run through. Not cams, the table clearly runs slow. Ongoing thing from an earlier post of mine. Still havent found it, and has now many confused. Thank you all for any replies! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]
    Don't mind me, what you read is invisible.

  • #2
    Re: Another national motor "Q"

    Sounds a lot like it's running off the start windings... but it must be an exceptionally cool-running motor, or it has a VERY strong klixon in it. Normally, after running on the start windings for a short while, it overheats/overcurrents and pops the klixon.

    First dumb question... does it do it all the time, or does it run OK sometimes, and then start running slow all of a sudden?

    If you have mechanical start switches (centrifugal mechanism), look there first... they can cause intermittent (or continuous) problems with not switching over to the 'run' windings.

    If you're using electronic starters, try swapping starters with another motor and see if the problem moves with the starter or stays with the motor, then drill down from there.

    Check the motor plug and wiring for fraying, loose terminals, arcing (carbon), or overheated insulation (usually seen as discoloration, stiffening, or charring of the wire jackets). Next, check the machine-side motor plug for the same things.

    Have a look at the C1 plug pins to see if any are carboned up. Next, the motor contactors (if you're not using electronics) and wiring.

    Occasionally, a motor can bridge internally and cause intermittent problems... it's rare that it would slow down, though... usually the windings just short out and pop the breaker/klixon almost immediately.
    <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

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    • #3
      Re: Another national motor "Q"

      Thanks for the response G-MAN! Ill give it to you like this... here we go... Table motor over time will start to get VERY hot and will eventually kick the wall breaker. Every so often it trips klixon, but usally wall breaker. So far I have changed motor(s), changed chassis, changed gearboxes with sweep, c1 plug new, changed capacitors, SSSS from Stahls (I should mention that we have those) changed, breaker in b.e. box changed, table switch, sweep switch(as they are jumped together) sweep reverse switch (as they always seem to do something goofy) new wires from ts strip to chassis, new motor plug, new jumper wire from TS17 to A1A (for that is known to burn out from time to time), new spot solenoid (i dont know why just started trying sh1t lol) swapped resistor wires (blue things next to capacitors) with sweep, nothing laying in wireway, cranking by hand feels fine so no problem with shaft bearing i guess, ... Do you or anyone who reads this think that maybe, being continuous, I have something going on with the back end maybe drawing too much? So when table goes to run it just aint getting what it needs? I am so lost. Thanks G and all!
      Don't mind me, what you read is invisible.

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      • #4
        Re: Another national motor "Q"

        G'day Bentwrench, it certainly seems like you've tried the majority of things to solve your problem, GMAN had some great tips too, but looks like you've covered those aswell. Good thinking...
        It sounds like you have a voltage problem....Not enough! Maybe you do have a problem with to much draw from elsewhere on the machine, a good frim starting point would be to check your voltage. Meter out your voltage to all three of your motors &amp; see whether its correct. even check your voltage into your front trunking via your mains russell stoll plug.
        Good luck mate

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        • #5
          Re: Another national motor "Q"

          Thanks Young Gun, will recheck but this time after b.e. motor runs for 20 minutes or so. This doesn't happen right away. I will get this for it is driving me insane! I keep in mind the K.I.S.S. principle all of the time BUT, i've been over it too many times now to convince me that there isn't something else going on here. Thanks for your response and will let you know what I find from your suggestion. G'day pal!
          Don't mind me, what you read is invisible.

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          • #6
            Re: Another national motor "Q"

            i don't think it's electrical. call me crazy. thanks. but seriously.. try this: remove table motor from gearbox, set it on top of the machine, plug it in and just continuously run that sucker.. how long's it go now? might lead ya in a different direction.. i mean.. i don't have half the experience of some of these older guys but a motor slowing down like that (and only one) sounds mechanical.. or maybe i'm just retarded feel free to laugh

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            • #7
              Re: Another national motor "Q"

              You have covered just about everything possible, short of whacking it upside the head with a bowling pin.

              To me it really sounds as if it’s just running off the start windings. Usually one capacitor going out with one still being good would cause your problem but shouldn’t trip the wall breaker unless it was shorted. Changing the spot solenoid was not stupid since one leg comes off the table contactors.

              What happens if you turn off the BE motor and run the table thru the TA1? Is it running slow still? I know you changed the capacitors, but wouldn’t hurt to swap them with the sweep for good measure.

              Next thing I would try is swapping the whole table cable assy with another machine.

              Triac

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              • #8
                Re: Another national motor "Q"

                Did this problem just start happening one day or has is been progressivly getting worse? I would take a look at your gear box and also your table drive unit.
                There is always more to life, but would someone tell me what it is!

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                • #9
                  Re: Another national motor "Q"

                  it just started happening. gearboxes changed already, and table drive turns smooth with spot/respot springs and table clevis removed.as well as gearbox of course. yet another day wasted as i just cant figure it out. thanks all!
                  Don't mind me, what you read is invisible.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Another national motor "Q"

                    Have you tried plugging the table cable into the sweep motor to confirm whether it's machine side or motor side?

                    You seem to have replaced everything in the table motor circuit except the motor cable, so the cable is looking like a good suspect to me.

                    Have you tried the the multimeter yet?

                    Check the link inside the motor plug from CT pin to Y pin.

                    Also check each wire from the table plug to the terminal strip and look for burnt or otherwise bad spade connections. The terminals are: TS1A1 (NIL pin; run winding), TS20 (Z pin; start winding), TS22 (X pin; both windings).

                    The wire running to TS1A1 is part of the run winding circuit, and if it's broken, only the start winding will function (which corresponds to what others were suggesting).

                    Hope that helps.

                    Andrew.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Another national motor "Q"

                      Thanks for checking in Andrew. I'm sorry that I forgot to mention that I did change motor plug. I will re-check that job tomorrow for I do remember being rather frustrated when I did it. May have done it too quickly, I don't know. Does anyone have a diagram of which terminal is which on the motor plug? I do not know if I do and I am not the greatest with the electrical system. Thanks!
                      Don't mind me, what you read is invisible.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Another national motor "Q"

                        Originally posted by bent wrench:
                        Thanks for checking in Andrew. I'm sorry that I forgot to mention that I did change motor plug. I will re-check that job tomorrow for I do remember being rather frustrated when I did it. May have done it too quickly, I don't know. Does anyone have a diagram of which terminal is which on the motor plug? I do not know if I do and I am not the greatest with the electrical system. Thanks!
                        <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't have an actual picture, but the pin names are molded to the back of the plug (with CT being the centre pin).

                        Andrew.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Another national motor "Q"

                          Thanks Andrew, never noticed that. MY BAD! Did plug into sweep today and instant grind so it is definately in the table circuit. Very frustrating considering that the table is much less than the sweep. I'll get it sometime, just if you think of ANYTHING, PLEASE TELL ME!!! thanks again! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img]
                          Don't mind me, what you read is invisible.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Another national motor "Q"

                            I don't want to talk you into testing the voltage because I don't know you and it's extremely dangerous.

                            There are also other (safe) things that can be tried first.

                            From the symptoms (and the fact that you've changed everything but the kitchen sink and the wiring), it would seem that somethings dodgy with the wiring of either the start winding circuit, or the run winding circuit.

                            You said you changed the plug. But also check the wiring from the plug back to the terminal strip (I mentioned the pin/terminal combinations in a previous post). It is important to check the terminal conections themselves, because loose connections can carbonise over time causing a problem circuit (and is a fire risk too).

                            Have you got a table motor circuit diagram? If you can follow it, then, with the POWER OFF and DISCONNECTED, check the continuity of each wire in the circuit.

                            Cheers,
                            Andrew.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Another national motor "Q"

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