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Sweep over run on reverse

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  • Sweep over run on reverse

    Was going to place this in "AMF trouble call of the month" but someone has a recent topic, so will post here instead.

    Thinking caps on. Here's the problem.

    On this lane when on off-spot cycle occurs, the sweep will stay at guard with table up and await technician to clear dead wood as normally happens. On holding in sweep reverse and sweep run switches for the correct amount of time to reverse the sweep a problem occurs. The sweep will run up to gaurd but will then continue down to first gaurd (66 degree's), very slow, and then bolt back to the edge of the tail plank and come to a halt.

    What's the fault? This is quite a tricky one! Took me a good half hour to get this!
    (S/S chassis with MK-70's and expanders)

    PS. swopped out sweep motor and chassis with good working ones and problem still persisted!
    Bring me the freshest "Mean Green" known to man! Juice on!

  • #2
    Re: Sweep over run on reverse

    The symptom of running to the back of the pindeck suggests that it's a) running backwards, and b) running the sweep to (what it thinks is) 66 (but since it's backwards, it stops at 186, which is the 7-10 line).

    If the machine is receiving the cycle signal while you're reversing the sweep, it will keep running. And since it is reverse direction, it will stay in reverse direction (even after you release SWSR).

    Hmmm. But here's where my theory starts to fall down - what would be telling machine to cycle? The cycle memory is reset at 66, so it can't trigger again until you actually start raising the sweep. And the cycle inputs are blocked while SA is on, so the trigger must occur while the sweep is being raised.

    If the cushion switch was broken and stuck on, then this will happen.

    However, you would have noticed the continuous cycle straight after clearing the sweep. You might have left that detail out - and since this is a setup question, I don't know if you left that out on purpose, or it didn't happen.

    I guess IR triggers or the scorer could also cycle the machine (the scorer would probably wait until the sweep arm scorer switch was pressed, which coincides with the sweep being reversed).

    [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]

    Andrew.

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    • #3
      Re: Sweep over run on reverse

      Gearbox is coasting.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Sweep over run on reverse

        Was it the sweep run switch?

        Mike

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        • #5
          Re: Sweep over run on reverse

          Well done Andrew. Spot on as usual!!

          What had happened was this. Another tech had installed a ZOT 2000 trigger on this lane. The zot would detect the ball as it would pass and cycle the machine through the 10th frame switch. On the off-spot cycle though it would trigger a cycle as the sweep was rising, causing the strange slow, fast sweep travel.
          It's funny how the machine doesnt cycle twice when the sweep comes down to gaurd during normal operation? I know you can buy a switch to block the signal but we dont have any installed yet!
          Anyway, excellent post by Andrew.
          Bring me the freshest "Mean Green" known to man! Juice on!

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          • #6
            Re: Sweep over run on reverse

            The reason it doesn't double cycle is that it's already cycling. It can't be re-triggered until the sweep is on it's way up from 270 to 0 (or if the sweep is reversed).

            We have our IR triggers away from the sweep so we don't have this problem, but I'll assume you need to have yours there for a reason, so...

            Instead of putting the trigger across the 10th frame switch, you could put across just the cushion start switch. That involves moving one of the trigger wires from the 10th frame input, and running it to the connection between SWS and the cushion start switch (the other wire is common between the 10th frame input and the cushion start switch, so you won't have to move that).

            The cushion start switch circuit is blocked by a NC contact of the sweep run switch (this stops the machine cycling from pins hitting the cushion when you sweep the pins off the deck). When you reverse the sweep after an offspot, the SWS will block the cushion start switch input and also the trigger input, so no cycle.

            There is another option as well: on our machines we have two microswitches on the sweep arm - one triggers the scoring (AccuScore+). The second is spare (I have no idea why it was put there long ago). If you have such a spare switch, you could use it to block the trigger.

            Cheers,
            Andrew.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Sweep over run on reverse

              Andrew: Excellent!
              I think the extra switch may have been for your masking units, if you had Mod V or Spectrum during the scoring installation.??

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Sweep over run on reverse

                Thanks for the great information Andrew. Will try out some of the ideas menchioned.

                I have utilised the second switch on one lane (accuscore +). I wired the second micro-switch into 5 and 6 in the A+MC box so the machine would not be able to turn off mid cycle. Its ok, but has several bad points. Not very safe, as cannot turn off machine from front desk if a customer decides to try and climb into the machine.
                The table is the last thing to stop during cycle and not the sweep.
                I am still not sure wither to carry on across the house with this mod or not. Probably not though.
                Bring me the freshest "Mean Green" known to man! Juice on!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Sweep over run on reverse

                  Alastair, we had the same thing on one lane. But I don't like it personally. IMO, the benefit doesn't quite warrant the potential danger (anyway, we have OmegaTeks, so the machine can always recover from being stopped mid-cycle). We didn't proceed with it.

                  (An aside: for our machines, the sweep is the last to stop - we have the mod to make the sweep wait for the table).

                  BowlEquip, I think we had Mod V masks - I'm not real sure (are they the ones with the huge printed circuit boards for pindication and sparemaker?). We also had MagiScore ages ago (before my time).

                  Cheers,
                  Andrew.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Sweep over run on reverse

                    I also run omega-tek's. What is this mod that you talk about to make the sweep finnish last? Can you adjust the table cams that far to do this?

                    I have mod IV masking units. Really old boys with a ton of wires all meshing into the green elco plug controlled by the chassis. Too expensive to have all the bulbs in and working. Does look cool when it is all lit up, but got mind blowing accuscore graphics anyway so, no need to utilise the mask lights. :p
                    Bring me the freshest "Mean Green" known to man! Juice on!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Sweep over run on reverse

                      The mod makes the sweep not go back to 0 until the table is half-way up (i.e. when TA2 is activated) instead of starting when the table is at 185 (TA1).

                      The original mod was done when we had 5 boards, and it simply involved switching the wires at TS-32 and TS-45 (it could alternatively be done at the cam switches' N.O. contacts).

                      However, this wiring mod became redundant when we installed OmegaTeks (in 1997) since the board makes the sweep wait for TA2 anyway.

                      If your sweep starts when the table is still close to the bottom, then you probably have the earlier OmegaTek board which didn't have the revised circuit.

                      There is a simple mod you can do the board to get late sweep rise - it involves cutting a track and adding a jumper. We have 1 old-style OmegaTek board, but since we have the original wiring mod on the machines, I have not needed to convert the board itself.

                      If you want more details let me know (there are some others on BT who have done this to their boards).

                      Cheers,
                      Andrew.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Sweep over run on reverse

                        very intersting topis Alistair and Andrew.
                        maister

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                        • #13
                          Re: Sweep over run on reverse

                          that should read topic not topis.well done.
                          maister

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Sweep over run on reverse

                            I have two old omega-tek boards running with expanders where TA1 is used to lift the sweep. I did use your info in an earlier topic, as you have written above, to run the sweep off of TA2 instead. Didn't want to void the warrenty on the boards by doing additional work to them. Prity simple mod when you think about it!?

                            Wired ZOT into SWS and PBC2 and all is well! (Saves hastle re-mounting sensors)
                            [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
                            Bring me the freshest "Mean Green" known to man! Juice on!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Sweep over run on reverse

                              Andrew: yeah, the Mod V was the first mask to cover a pair of lanes. It came out in 1980. They were always earth-tone in color: beige and brown, with colored rings around each pin number hole in the screen.

                              BTW, I have a mod for letting the machine finish cycle before shutting down. It works for Elco and MP chassis' but cannot be done on C23. It involves switching a couple wires in the chassis. The problem with C23 is there aren't any available relay terminals or poles to wire it so that you can't cycle it during the back end time delay. I did not pursue it any farther since it would require adding another relay.

                              If anyone is interested, please reply here. I'll dig out the prints and start a new thread with a verbal description.

                              Comment

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