B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

[Andrew]

On our machines - and I assume most if not all 70s - the BE motor runs during the shut-off timeout.

I started thinking about the merits of this. My main concern is that if kids wander down the lane, and front counter staff turn off the machine (in the attempt to 'save' the kids), the BE remains running. Only if you run to the back of the machine (or climb up behind the curtain wall) can you reach a switch to shut it off entirely.

Even the mask switch (which is there for safety purposes surely) does not shut off the BE motor (I think it does on XLis - is that true?).

So this got me thinking, what if we change the chassis so that the BE motor shuts off immediately (but keep the S/Pik running during timeout).

It appears (I haven't tried) that you can do this by simply moving one wire from M pin 9 to M pin 11.

I was trying to think through all the ramifications of this change.

I don't think early shut off is a problem, since the lane computer keeps the machine running a little while after the last frame.

It's possible that if the lane computer shut off delay is short enough, that not all pins will end up back in the bins. I'm not sure if pins not in the bins would really matter (though I'm wondering if pileups could be caused by that), but our lane computer delay is long enough anyway.

Thoughts/comments anyone? Any issues you see with this?

Thanks,
Andrew.

[Pulsetech]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

Andrew we have no time out here at werribee
it's not the best somtimes the machine shuts off when there are pins in the pinwheel
these can somtimes come out head first when the machine is turned back on
not all that common a fault but still a pain
fyi the 8290 xl and 8800 gold machines shut off
when the mask switch is activated as well as the xli's
with qubica the machine shuts off straight after a game so there can be a problem with no time delay we quite often get call to send a ball back after the game finishes
you could rewire the mask switch if that was a concern-
Give me a ring if you want to discuss it any
further
Greg

[partnumber]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

A too short or no delay BE motor WILL lead to pinjams.
Our machines (82-90) have qubica scoring and qubica uses the masking switch to turn on/off the pinspotter. On 82-90 the mask-switch turns the machine off immediateley.
Have seen many times pinhead first on distributor belt just after the machine has been shut off.
Also seen: too short distance between pins leading to pin jams because pin has no speed from pinwheel to turn fast from O-pan to belt.
Still searching for a simple solution to regain delayed BE shut off. As we had in the accuscore /MCU ages

[triac]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

Andrew,

Did something happen to get you thinking, or are you just looking at worst case scenarios?

If you’re that concerned, don’t tie 9 & 11 together for the M relay. The machine will finish its cycle when power is turned off (and it will also be able to cycle) for as long as the thermal time delay is active.

This mod can come in handy when a machine is in mid cycle when power is turned off… such as when they come out of practice with a Qubica scoring system or if they are on time bowling. But it can be dangerous for the unaware employee or stupid customer. In fact, if you remove these wires and tie them together…then break the cycle circuit and put it thru the M contact points 9 & 11….the machine will finish the cycle when turned off but it wont cycle until power is applied. This comes in handy when running a lane machine past electronic triggering or a customer in time bowling wants to keep bowling for another 30-45 seconds after time has expired.

I would think that you need to remove the thermal time delay out of the circuit to accomplish what you want. Problems I’ve had with a defective time delay…is the customer’s ball won’t come back if in time bowling or coming out of practice and head first pins on the “O” pans. It becomes such a PITA even on one machine; I keep them replaced when they go out. But if your scoring will hold time on long enough, give it a try because when our scoring system says off…everything in mid cycle stops dead, except the thermal.

Triac

[Jimmy Jam]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

Originally posted by Andrew:

Thoughts/comments anyone? Any issues you see with this?

Thanks,
Andrew.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you posted this for other reasons than safety. Why on earth would you want to stop the pit from running but not the surepik? Thats kind of stupid in my opinion. But your not stupid. So whats the deal.
Thats my comment.

[JimDorsin]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

The time delay is designed to return late delivered balls.

If someone gets into the machine, the pit is the least of his/her worries. A rug burn is well deserved for someone stupid enough to climb in one in the 1st place. (this is the most that can realisticly happen if the spotter is off) If a parrent has there head so far up there a$$ that they cant pay attention to thier kids, then there face should applied directly to the moving carpet for no less than 10 minutes (as long as you have a pinney around to clean up the mess) then the children perminantly removed from the home.

JMO

[Andrew]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

I think out of all the feedback, I've agreed with Paul's the most [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] .

Greg: You got me thinking; I do like the idea of at least the mask switch shutting everything off (including s/pik). I guess that could be done without changing the normal turn-off time delay for the manager's control switch (and control desk) since we have ComputerScore, not Qubica.

Partnumber: yeah I thought that turning off the pit while pins are in the pinwheel would lead to jams. That would be the end of the story if our lane control computer didn't have a delay.

Triac: nah, just was thinking about it for thinking's sake. I've always wondered what would happen to a kid if they got rolled around in the pit for a minute or two. Might be fun for them [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] .

As for the mod, I wouldn't tie 9 and 11 together, as that would make it worse (as you mentioned). It may be handy, but just too risky for my liking (and for the Australian Department of Labour's liking).

JJ - I guess I didn't consider the s/pik to be as dangerous in this scenario as the pit because the s/pik has it's own safety switch - the pit has none other than the BE CB or power switch (which is at the back and hard to get at from the front). And thanks for saying I'm not stupid [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img] .

Thanks everyone. You all get a free beer if you come and visit me.

Out of this, I think I like the idea of changing the mask switch to shut everything off, but leave the rest of the manager's circuit alone (including running the pit during time delay).

Cheers,
Andrew.

[Jimmy Jam]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

If I had to do it tomorrow I would try adding a transformer at the manager control area at the front desk and disconnect the ground side of the switch for instructomat and feed it power from the transformer. That should trip the control box breaker in the back right?
If that little experiment didn't work I would go buy a cheap motion detector(pir) for $20 or so and mount it on the masking unit. Power it from 10vdc off the machine and wire the contacts to trip the control box breaker.
I don't know....Bowltech make me drink to much.

[Andrew]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

I don't know if putting another transformer in series with the manager control circuit will blow the breaker, but it is likely to blow something up [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] .

Cheers,
Andrew.

[Andrew]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

Oh, the IR idea is good too - Ray Jordan makes add-ons to his Lane Minder system to do exactly that (we don't have that part though, only the basic Lane Minder).

[Pulsetech]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

Thanks everyone. You all get a free beer if you come and visit me

On the way mate

[JimDorsin]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

Hel....If I could afford the plane tik, I would be on my way. Free beer tasts the best!!

[Lafarge..]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

ndrew Do you have Mps or boards? IF you have Mps and you have the newer boards you could take the jumper off of the pit teminal I think it is J10 Not sure though this would kill the pit if the power to the machine was killed like the mask switch or the control desk switch or even the scoring computer. We have a function on our scring to keep the ballifts up front running when the scoring is on and when it goes off so do our lifts.

[Andrew]

Re: B/E motor during machine shut-off timeout

Lafarge, we have OmegaTechs in SS chassis.