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**wb8yjf** · 12-05-2005, 04:13 PM

Re: Circuit Breaker or Clixon

Klixon has a longer life than a breaker. Basically a Klixon is a metal disk that will change shape as the current increases, once the "limit" of the Klixon is reached, the bi-metal disk will *snap* (change shape) and will diconnect the load from the device. Breakers come in lots of types, the common ones used in Chassis (the push button type) tend to have a short life, after disconnecting and reconnecting so many times, they will open up internally & have to be replaced. The Klixon is the best device for protecting motors, since the odds are they will be tripped many times due to the miriad of problems that will make a motor overload. Nationals have Klixons built in I do believe...

Thant help? [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
Jon

**Andrew** · 12-05-2005, 05:25 PM

Re: Circuit Breaker or Clixon

Nice description, Jon.

Some extra info for Peeter:

A circuit breaker is anything that is used to break a circuit under exceptional (i.e. fault) conditions.

Klixon is a brand (owned by Texas Instruments) for a thermal overload circuit breaker (as well as other thermal devices such as thermostats).

As Jon described, a thermal circuit breaker uses a bimetallic surface (strip, or circle, etc) to detect higher-than-rated temperatures, plus a heating element to produce a high-temp condition when high-current is passed through it. They are suited to motors because they are slow acting (they won't prematurely trip during the motor's high-current start-up), but sensitive (e.g. the rating can be very close to the required operating current of the motor).

You can get manual and auto reset Klixons too (the machine motors use manual-reset Klixons, and our sure piks use auto-reset Klixons).

Another type of circuit breaker is the electromagnetic circuit breaker. This is the type commonly found in households. It uses an electromagnet that magnetically pulls the switch open if the current exceeds the rating. This type is usually unsuitable for industrial motors because they are relatively faster acting (compared to thermal breakers) and thus the rating would need to be quite higher than the operating current of the motor to handle the extra current required during start up.

Andrew.

**Megatech** · 12-05-2005, 06:30 PM

Re: Circuit Breaker or Clixon

The best thing is to use motors without klixon, or circuitbreaker, or startcapacitors, or brakeresistors, or startswitch, or ........... [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img] <a href="http://www.maximumtechnology.nl/GB/motoren.html" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.maximumtechnology.nl/GB/motoren.html" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.maximumtechnology.nl/GB/motoren.html" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.maximumtechnology.nl/GB/motoren.html" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.maximumtechnology.nl/GB/motoren.html" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.maximumtechnology.nl/GB/motoren.html" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.maximumtechnology.nl/GB/motoren.html" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.maximumtechnology.nl/GB/motoren.html" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.maximumtechnology.nl/GB/motoren.html" target="_blank">http://www.maximumtechnology.nl/GB/motoren.html</a></a></a></a></a></a></a></a></a> Ohhh, I'm sorry, I'm not answering your question. Peter, if you want to use klixons, make sure you have the right type of klixon for your type of motor! There's many different types for combi and backend motors, but its also different for the 50 cycles that we have overhere. It also makes a difference if you are using solid state startswitches on your motor. You could use the PKZ breakers from Moeller. They are especially made for motor protection. Good thing is that you can easily adjust them for the type of motor that you are using.

Best way to test your overload switch is to disconnect the startwinding or capacitor. A good motorprotection should also switch off the power if only one winding (the runwinding) is overloaded. With this test you simulate a bad startswitch or capacitor, and you depend on your overload switch to protect your motorwindings. Put power to the motor. The overload switch should turn off the power within 20 - 30 seconds. If not: wrong klixon for that motor, or overload switch not adjusted properly. It takes a while to get it right, but it's worth it!

**Lampie** · 12-05-2005, 09:11 PM

Re: Circuit Breaker or Clixon

I am using these(see pictures) more than 10 years now(4Amps.)and not one of our motors(on '30 and '70 machines, combo or BE)has burnt since using them, available in every radio shack......
[img]http://pic17.****************/VOL856/934456/1718790/23193423.jpg[/img]
[img]http://pic17.****************/VOL856/934456/1718790/23193370.jpg[/img]

Don't tell me I can't use them if I install SSSS on our motors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**Megatech** · 12-06-2005, 01:53 AM

Re: Circuit Breaker or Clixon

Lampie,that was startswitches in general. I've seen a lot of burned out motors in the last 20 years in many different centers in Europe. With ssss or without. With klixons, or the circuit breakers you are using. Most of them on 70's. Try it out while your motors are still working!

**Lampie** · 12-06-2005, 05:54 PM

Re: Circuit Breaker or Clixon

I've tried it, circuit breaker trips if something is wrong?!?
Different story with clixons tripping too late or take an hour to cool down...
Sorry

**AMF-Holland** · 12-06-2005, 06:05 PM

**Andrew** · 12-06-2005, 06:09 PM

Re: Circuit Breaker or Clixon

Martin, do you use one per motor, or per winding, or..?

What sort of motors?

Are they a special type of CB (from Radio Shack, so I guess they're not too special)?

Andrew.

**Megatech** · 12-06-2005, 06:20 PM

Re: Circuit Breaker or Clixon

Great Lampie! If this test went OK your motors are well protected. You have nothing to worry about, regardless of what startswitch you are (or will be) using. Better to try em then to fry em! [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] :p

**triac** · 12-06-2005, 07:40 PM

Re: Circuit Breaker or Clixon

Megatech…

20-30 seconds for a Klixon to trip? My factory KX (50/60hz-115vac) trips in ~1-3 seconds. Even with a 20% difference in cycle phase it should at least trip within few seconds before the windings become toaster coils.

AMF-Holland

For a 115vac motor you might need at least an 8 amp breaker. On my motor tester I have a 10 amp breaker and it will trip before the KX does if something is wrong with the motor. Lampie’s using 4 amp, because I believe he is running 220vac. I still prefer the KX (at least for the BE) because the delay allows me to pull start a motor going out until I get around to changing it.

Triac

**Megatech** · 12-07-2005, 04:06 AM

Re: Circuit Breaker or Clixon

triac.
I'm sorry, this is what I ment:
In real life 20 - 30 seconds is too long before a breaker (klixon) trips, but if it doesn't by then, you stop this test.

There's a lot of motors on machines everywhere in Europe (rebuilt, repaired, or even new) of wich the klixons aren't working at all! These motors were probably a mixture of windings, klixons and other parts that make up a complete motor.

There's two easy ways to find out if klixons are working:

1. Wait for your firealarm to go off.

2. Try them while your motors are still working. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

AMF Holland,
Wire it up, do the test and let us all know.

**AMF-Holland** · 12-07-2005, 10:30 AM

**AMF-Holland** · 12-07-2005, 11:08 AM

Re: Circuit Breaker or Clixon

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**Lampie** · 12-07-2005, 09:05 PM

Re: Circuit Breaker or Clixon

Andrew,

I use one per motor, connected between the hot line going to the motor plug.
I use the same circuit breakers on all motors(Westinghouse/National Combo/BE).
I have 230V and use 4A circuit breakers(should be 8A on 115V), Siemens C4/5SQ and Hager C4/MJ504.
They cost about 16 Euro each and are available in most shops.
Good Luck
[img]http://pic17.****************/VOL856/934456/3560906/121168344.jpg[/img] [img]http://pic17.****************/VOL856/934456/3560906/121168349.jpg[/img]

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