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  • Cylce from ball detect

    Been researching schematics and found out about the cycle relay from Brunswick in the BE control box (8270 and frameworks) It will cycle the machine on a 5v signal from the ccd processor. Will that cycle the machine on any 5v signal to the input. Why doesn't the scoring system use that as the cycle. Eliminate the cushion switch entirely and use that to eliminate kids bowling 6 times per frame.
    Failed safety course.Question #1:In case of fire what steps do you take? Apparently 'Friggin long ones!" is the wrong answer.

  • #2
    Re: Cylce from ball detect

    To begin with…do not put the 5v directly to the machine. The cycle circuit on a 70 is nothing more than a broken circuit with its own power supply waiting to be completed.

    You would need to put that 5v signal to the coil of a relay. The contacts of that relay would go to A&MC TB-A/B 1&2 to complete the cycle.

    Problems that may arise:

    1.) The relay coil could draw to many amps (if you don’t have the proper relay) and jack up ccd logic functions.

    2.) Time delay issue…once the signal has been sent, you may get a lot of sweeps hit from slow balls…unless you move the sensor behind the sweep or design a time delay circuit. Problem with moving the sensor behind the sweep is vibration or damaged sensor from flying pins.

    Triac

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Cylce from ball detect

      There is a relay board in the BE box from Brunswick for no tap, foul and 10th frame cycles. It receives a 5v signal from the ccd processor and closes the cycle circuit. I took a 5v power supply and sent a signal to the board and it cycled the machine. I took the supply voltage off as the sweep was returning to zero and the machine stopped after that cycle. All I believe I need to do is utilize the ball detect signal which is 5v, possibly at the detect itself or at the processor board, or come off the led at the detect to trigger an isolated 5v signal to the board. I figure that would be much easier than trying to convince brunswick that a minor software modification could save alot of time by utilizing the existing system.
      Failed safety course.Question #1:In case of fire what steps do you take? Apparently 'Friggin long ones!" is the wrong answer.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Cylce from ball detect

        I have little doubt that this is a silly question with an obvious answer, but...

        If the system has "ball detects" what do they do if they don't cycle the machine??

        Are they for measuring ball speed for bowler's interest and nothing else?

        Regardless, you might not be able to mix the 5V supplies of the two system (i.e. you probably won't be able to parallel the scoring output and the ball detect output and join them at the input to the cycle relay unit because it could harm either system depending on how those 5V outputs are generated).

        A simpler method is not to interface to the cycle relay unit at all but to drive the machine cycle input directly.

        What boards have you got in your chassis?

        The delay issue is where it jumps a level of complexity, although a fairly simple circuit should be possible.

        Question is whether it is worth it.

        Andrew.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Cylce from ball detect

          The ball detect is merely for the camera to go into 'take data' mode, when the sweep is down and the table at a certain height (16+ inches I think) it will take it's picture for scoring. Would it work to put a diode on each line to prevent a 'backfeed' of either supply. We have the omega tek expansions.
          Failed safety course.Question #1:In case of fire what steps do you take? Apparently 'Friggin long ones!" is the wrong answer.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Cylce from ball detect

            Feedback diodes might be sufficient, but it's still no guarantee that the ball detect output can source enough current for the ball cycle input.

            You can only be sure if you check the circuits and determine what devices are used for output and input. Fairly good educated assumptions can be made though, but the risk is there nevertheless.

            What other inputs/outputs does the ball cycle device have? Is there a 12V or 5V supply powering it, or one inside it?

            Are both the ball detect 5V and the CCD output 5V coming from the same place (the camera)?

            Andrew.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Cylce from ball detect

              The ball detect and the machine cycle 5v sources both come from the same board. I'm starting to think of maybe using the 5v ball detect to trigger a transistor that closes the 5v to the cycle. I'm wondering if the brief surge of 5v from the ball detect is maybe not enough to trigger the relay. I'll post a schematic and some pictures tonight after I get home of all the components involved.
              Failed safety course.Question #1:In case of fire what steps do you take? Apparently 'Friggin long ones!" is the wrong answer.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Cylce from ball detect

                What function if any does the cycle realy device perform other than closing a relay contact when receiving the 5v? What other connections does it have? Does it have its own power supply, or does it get 5v/12v/something from somewhere else?

                Would be good to see the schematic of the cycle relay.

                How would you hook the transitor up? The 5V ouptut can drive it, but what supply would it be driving? You're better off driving the OT input to ground. However, I'd suggest using an opto instead.

                Andrew.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Cylce from ball detect

                  hey guys im havin a small problem (and by small i mean im starting to pull my hair out) ive got amf 82-70s with solid state chassis and i cant get a machine to cycle ive tried changing boards changing chassis playing with cams ive changed relays iv changed the cycle switch and still nothing just wonderinf if you guys had any idea and if you could hep me from going bald thanx

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Cylce from ball detect

                    Can you manually run the sweep and table from the cams, check your c-plugs carefully for bad wires, charred pins, maybe even a pin that got pushed into the connector. Did the problem just suddenly crop up one day, was the machine a little flaky and finally gave up. Can you get a cycle from any other places (be box, players reset, cushion switch during play)

                    forgive my wierd punctuation, my question mark key is broke.
                    Failed safety course.Question #1:In case of fire what steps do you take? Apparently 'Friggin long ones!" is the wrong answer.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Cylce from ball detect

                      Originally posted by Batman:
                      hey guys im havin a small problem (and by small i mean im starting to pull my hair out) ive got amf 82-70s with solid state chassis and i cant get a machine to cycle ive tried changing boards changing chassis playing with cams ive changed relays iv changed the cycle switch and still nothing just wonderinf if you guys had any idea and if you could hep me from going bald thanx
                      <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From the looks of your picture the hair pulling is getting out of hand.
                      The machine is in instructomat, that is, the manager control circuit is grounded.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Cylce from ball detect

                        Batman,

                        Wahsam is correct.

                        If you can run the sweep thru the sweep run switch and not the SA then you probably have a short in your shadow circuit. Disconnect and tape off the thin gray wire on the T2 and retest.

                        If it works then you have a short in your shadow circuit. You can leave this wire disconnected and it won’t hurt anything. But you will lose shadow bowl and your front desk frame counter won’t work.

                        Triac

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Cylce from ball detect

                          hey i can run table and sweep from cams and contactors but wont cycle from anywhere im not really up with the play on the t2 thingy can u be more pasific is that the thin gray wire on table contactor??????????????

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Cylce from ball detect

                            The T2 is the small transformer located under the table contactor. You will have to pull the bottom off to get to it. There will be 2 larger wires on one side (high voltage) and 3 thin wires on the other side (low voltage). The thin gray wire will be on the low voltage.

                            Since you can run the sweep thru the SA cam, a short in your instructomat probably isn’t your problem. Give it a try anyway and let us know (don’t forget to tape it off). Be very careful when disconnecting, as these transformers become very brittle with age. Also, you might try changing the SA switch if that don’t work since all cycle inputs have to go thru the NO contacts on this switch.

                            What kind of circuit boards are in your chassis (ie..Omega Tek with expander, Zot, 5 boards)?

                            Triac

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Cylce from ball detect

                              Instructomat does not block SA running the sweep on 5 board or OmegaTek.

                              In the other thread Batman says he has 5 boards and OmegaTek and has tried both - same fault.

                              Does your #1 board have neon lights in them - you could check whether the INST light is on to confirm if it is indeed a problem with the instructomat circuit.

                              SA must be okay since the problem follows the chassis, as would everything else outside the chassis.

                              Check C2A-27, C2A-31 (those two should be linked inside the chassis), C2A-14 and C2A-32 (those should be linked but also connected to the motherboard). Check the pins themselves and also follow the wires inside the chassis.

                              Check the two grey wires coming from spot relay pin #1 (one goes to T2) and one goes to the motherboard. Make sure neither is shorting to ground.

                              Note that the several cycle inputs (cushion switch, scorer, 10th frame, back end PBC if you have one) come through two different C2A inputs, so I suggest while you're testing, try at least the cushion switch and the scorer cycle.

                              Andrew.

                              Comment

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