Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Spotting problem

Collapse

Adsense Classic 1

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Spotting problem

    G'day again peoples,

    I have this kinda strange problem, well i have a lot of strange problems but THIS one is related to work, [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/burningmad.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif[/img]
    AS REQUESTED....The all new and VERY improved "super cool" Pin_Head with super hip shades.....

  • #2
    Re: Spotting problem

    Next time its just sitting there not spotting , but should, take a piece of wire and short the ground side of the BS neon lamp to the side of the chassis.Sparks will fly but it will start working again. You're not getting good contact thru your bin sw. this sorta cleans the sw. contacts..You can change the sw.,but I would try jumping it 1st. make sure you touch the ground side of the neon (the bottom side) solder joint.AMF makes a cap. you can install under the front wireway to help with this problem. It cleans the BS contacts.If i can find the part no. ,I'll post it.
    People tell me I'm indecisive, but I just don't know...

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Spotting problem

      We used to get a little problem with that type of a no spot once in awhile. If you turned the mach. off and back on, it would spot. Once we put in the Omega-Tech boards that problem stopped.
      I also would do as Pin Head did - just zero it and cycle. It wasn't a big problem so I never looked any further. Nice to know about the cure.
      "Gun control is the policy of tyrants"
      Rep. Rob Bishop (R-UT)

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Spotting problem

        When you changed the chassis did you use the same spot relay?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Spotting problem

          I bet this is happening more on Xs. Next time it happens, look at your masking unit to see if your X and 1st ball light are on(This is assuming your first ball light toggles off when 2nd ball light comes on). If both lights are on, you have a bad TA2 microswitch. The problem is that the switch clicks twice during a cycle so when the table gets back to the top it stops because it doesnt know what to do. During a normal X cycle with finger cell wires, the first ball light will go out and the X light will come on. The first ball light wont come back on until the table and sweep are back up at zero. The chassi gets confused and just freezes up. Pressing the ball stepper will clear the prob or shutting off the white CB for a few seconds and turning it back on will clear it. I would change out your table microswitches and be done with it.

          Wang

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Spotting problem

            Wang has a good point of what may be going on. However, I would do a simple test first by shorting the wires to the bin switch with a screwdriver when problem occurs. If she spots, just change the bin switch....If not there is a high probability of the TA2 being on the fritz as Wang mentioned.

            I don’t believe a capacitor should be used for cleaning the contacts of this or any switch. Alls it will do is decrease the life of the switch by pitting it. My reasoning is this.....The bin switch uses the same voltage as the cam switches…..So why not put a cap across all the switches if this is beneficial?

            Triac

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Spotting problem

              If my memeroy is right and I'm going waaaay back to my 5 bd. days, But doesn't the bin sw. ground the BS neon lamp on the 1bd.so it will light.I can't remember quite how the circuitry was,but wern't the lamps powered by -150VDC except for foul and instruct-o-mat.There was some form of resistor in there so the sw. didn't have all that voltage on it.I know AMF introduced the cap. as a kit to (as they put it) clean the BS contacts by zapping the sw.I did the same thing by jumping at the 1bd.When I had a machine that would intermittently not spot I'd zap the BS circuit at the chassis and it would go back to spotting like it should.I'm talking late 70's early 80's. We started trying different 1bd. designs that got away from the lamp /photo-cell combo for this reason. If this is whats happening then the BS neon won't be on when its waiting to spot.I guess I should ask if he is still running neons before I rambled on....If not NEVER_MINE....
              People tell me I'm indecisive, but I just don't know...

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Spotting problem

                Originally posted by TA2:
                take a piece of wire and short the ground side of the BS neon lamp to the side of the chassis.Sparks will fly but it will start working again.
                <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Connecting a side of the neon to ground would short the -150V supply. And shorting the other side, would cut BS out of the circuit. So I'm confused as to how this helps the BS?

                I would think you'd have to short across the neon (and probably it's partner resistor) to get the 150V across the BS (and TA2 also), if that is indeed the aim. Besides, if the BS is closed at the time, how does this remove any carbon from the contacts?

                Either way, there's a good chance of reducing the life of the transformer. Contact cleaner sounds like a safer option [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] but I'd just replace the switch.

                If you only see the problem when the strike light is on, then Wang's suggestion of TA2 is a sure bet.

                If it does actually happen on second ball sometimes, then BS would be the bet.

                Both are good odds [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] .

                We recently (on bowltech) had a long discussion about what those BS capacitors really achieve and how. I don't think we ever got to the bottom of it. Suffice to say, I agree with Triac in that I wouldn't recommend putting one on your 5-board chassis machines.

                Good luck.
                Andrew.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Spotting problem

                  We changed out all the TA's and SA's two years ago when we tried to get the expander boards to work. The expander boards caused too many problems and they got yanked. We spent many hours trying to get the bugs out.
                  &quot;Gun control is the policy of tyrants&quot;
                  Rep. Rob Bishop (R-UT)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Spotting problem

                    Connecting a side of the neon to ground would short the -150V supply. And shorting the other side, would cut BS out of the circuit. So I'm confused as to how this helps the BS?
                    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can't give you the dynamics of just how this worked, but it worked.One selling point with purchasing the cap. kit was you could put it on a machine for a while , let it do its thing and move it to another machine.I haven't messed with SS's in 20+ years.I hope I never will.......
                    People tell me I'm indecisive, but I just don't know...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Spotting problem

                      Originally posted by 82/70 Wang:
                      I bet this is happening more on Xs. Next time it happens, look at your masking unit to see if your X and 1st ball light are on(This is assuming your first ball light toggles off when 2nd ball light comes on). If both lights are on, you have a bad TA2 microswitch. The problem is that the switch clicks twice during a cycle so when the table gets back to the top it stops because it doesnt know what to do. During a normal X cycle with finger cell wires, the first ball light will go out and the X light will come on. The first ball light wont come back on until the table and sweep are back up at zero. The chassi gets confused and just freezes up. Pressing the ball stepper will clear the prob or shutting off the white CB for a few seconds and turning it back on will clear it. I would change out your table microswitches and be done with it.

                      Wang
                      <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I KNEW IT!!!
                      I have SS w/ Omega-teks and this sometimes happens and it is ALWAYS on a strike cycle and it is never the bin switch. I always suspected it was TA2 but could never prove it until.....

                      One of the other pinchasers had a problem with the table on a certain lane and messed around with the TA cam switches which was completely un necessary (since it turned out to be something else anyway). Well, after he did that, all of a sudden that evening it started doing this "strike lock" thing and sometimes wouldn't change cycles. The not changing cycles was caused by TA2 being out of adjustment, and I knew that. TA2 must close before TA1 or it won't change cycles. So I adjusted TA2 correctly to cure the not changing cycles thing and what do you know, it hasn't "strike locked" ever since. I always thought TA2 had something to do with it and now that I think back on all the other machines over the years that had the same problem it was always because TA2 was wrong. I'm not saying that is the one and only cause, but from my experience it is a damn good place to start. Thanks Wang from confirming my suspicion. [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Spotting problem

                        The easiet thing to do when you suspect this strike lock problem, is to shut off the white CB for 5 to 10 sec. Doing so kind of resets and clears the chassi. When you turn it bac on the table will respot and empty deck and go to second ball. Hit cycle to get a full rack and it might not strike lock again for a while. Hitting the ball stepper button will clear it too, but in my limited experience the machine will strike lock again the next time a strike is thrown, thus leaving you with antoher call. Just my two cents.

                        Wang

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Spotting problem

                          When my SS machines stopped with 1st ball and X lite on, I would tweak the adjustment on the TA2 sw lever.Turn the screw in 1/2 a turn.Problem solved... [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] Hence the name TA2......
                          People tell me I'm indecisive, but I just don't know...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Spotting problem

                            In reference to the switches... they can get flaky. The microswitches on the sweep, table, and bin carry only 'signal' voltage. If oil, dirt, or corrosion build up on the internal contact pads, the low voltage does not have enough 'punch' to burn it off the contacts, and so it builds up until you have an intermittent (sometines even constant) non-contact condition.

                            The 'cap across the switch' fix I have always considered to be questionable... if there isn't enough voltage to burn the gunk off the contacts during normal operation, then the cap won't help much, other than adding a bit of inductive "debounce' to the circuit, which really isn't needed anyway.

                            You need not worry about 'pitting' the switch contacts as much as getting the crap cleaned off of them. The best fix is to replace the switch, however, you can usually rejuvenate the contacts and take care of the 'gunk buildup' problem with 2 lantern batteries (or a small 12-volt cell like an emergency light battery), a pair of jumper wires, an easily-made harness, and a couple minutes of time... But it's pretty much a moot point. For how seldom this happens, replacing the switch is the best, and most reliable, fix.

                            You can check the switches with an analog meter or a small audio amplifier from Radio Shack. Isolate the switch from the circuit, and place the meter/amp across the NO and COM terminals. Close the switch. On the meter (set to resistance / continuity), a marginal/dirty switch will show up as a wobbling needle instead of a smooth rise and stop at zero ohms. On the amp, a clean switch will make a nice dry 'click' in the speaker, a dirty switch will click, then make 'scratchy' noises. Dirty switches will cause you no end of flaky, intermittent problems... especially on the T and S switches, where they are subject to oil/grease seeping into the switch housing and gunking up the contacts.
                            <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Spotting problem

                              Originally posted by TheGMan143:
                              The 'cap across the switch' fix I have always considered to be questionable... if there isn't enough voltage to burn the gunk off the contacts during normal operation, then the cap won't help much, other than adding a bit of inductive "debounce' to the circuit, which really isn't needed anyway.
                              <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's not the voltage that's the problem, it's the current. The operating current is supposedly not high enough to keep the contacts clean. The cap produces a pulse of very high current (and same signal voltage). Note that Omegatek boards pull around 10mA current (at 30V) through the switches. I figure this is above the wetting current of the standard switches (i.e. it is enough to keep the contacts clean), but I haven't looked up the specs for our switches. We don't replace them very often - one every other year or so (we have 30 lanes of OmegaTeks). The old 5 boards would have pulled more current.

                              Cheers,
                              Andrew.

                              Comment

                              Topic Starter RibbonScript

                              Collapse

                              Adsense Classic 2

                              Collapse
                              widgetinstance 666 (Related Topics) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                               

                              Well this is a first.

                              We all from time to time have one of those “wow I’ve never seen THAT before” moments. Well today was one of those for me when my night tech texts me to say lane 16 is out...
                               

                              Ball return wheel guide roller removal.

                              Hey guys, i could just use a bit of advice trying to get this part out, first time I've had to do one of these. I got it to move a few turns but its come to a point where it has...
                               

                              Even old mechanics find something new.

                              All my years working on these things I never had this happen…… until last week. ...
                               

                              82-90XL Frontend Gearbox Parts - Rebuild Woes

                              We have 5 of the 088000365 replacement gear kits on the shelf, and I pulled two gearboxes off machines earlier this week, so I thought I'd try my hand at rebuilding them and save...
                               

                              Prolane damage

                              Can this be repaired?
                               

                              LED Ball Lights

                              Made an LED conversion for A2's and Frameworx masks. It can also be modded for the Harmony masks to accept 2 x 5mm led's and/or a 12v supply. Once I'm happy with the performance/design...
                              Working...
                              X