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  • X cycle with expanders

    Have been having a severe problem with one of the lanes in the centre. It just wouldn’t do a strike cycle very often at all, around one out of ten times.
    (82-70's with omega-teks and expanders with table cables removed)

    We have this on going problem through-out the centre, but not as defined. I am not the only one to experience this as have talked about his before here on bowltech several times looking for answers. Anyhow, was bowling on this lane and well got very upset as having to push the 10th frame button to re-rack pins. Which in turn led onto a break through.

    At first I thought that this was a fault inherent with-in the omega-tek expander boards itself and that nothing could be done about it, but soon my attitude changed.

    It seemed that the signal was being received by the machine late and the machine would just do a normal first ball cycle. The camera and scoring seemed fine as changed out camera and CWC. Camera reads strike as scoring would say so and be marked up on the score sheet. Changed out micro switch on sweep arm for scoring too, in case of a bounce signal being sent by an old switch to the scoring which may in turn lead to the problem, but alas not.
    Also replaced out the Start switch on the cushion as well, but to no avail.

    Jumped mask unit to eliminate that, but machine would still occasionally do a first ball cycle when no pins were standing on the deck. Then I jumped the A+MC plug. Pulled out plug and jumped across 5+6. (Thanks to Dutch for that cracking info. Will not be forgotten!)
    Low and behold, the machine would always perform its shortened cycles!!
    Re-installed A+MC and eliminated manager’s control switch by disconnecting it. Problem still stayed. Changed out Lane A card and problem seems to have been eradicated 99%. (there has only been one occasion on which the machine did a first ball cycle when a strike was thrown in over three days)

    So...to draw in conclusion, the machine is looking for a ground from the LIU when it cycles?? At present our LIU is off as running in Stand-alone. Is there anyway to eliminate the LIU altogether?? Have I drawn the correct conclusion here??


    PS. A big thank-you to Maister for his help. In my opinion he is the leading man in the world on AMF machines!!
    Bring me the freshest "Mean Green" known to man! Juice on!

  • #2
    Re: X cycle with expanders

    I've noticed the same thing in my house. Never really did get into it, we have expanders but our wiring is still in. I've seen it from the back, the table is already starting it's motion by the time the expander gets the info from the scoring thus the table runs, with the table wiring still in we dont have the jumper set on the expanders to ground the table at all times so we will get a "X" cycle just not shortened. Doesn't happen very often but I have caught it from time to time
    All I want in life is to turn wrenches and climb around pinsetters/pinspotters again :/

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: X cycle with expanders

      Do you still have the frameters in the system?
      I've had enough of hope & chains.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: X cycle with expanders

        Yes the the frame meters are still in the system.(managers control switch) I originally thought that they were interfereing with the boards functions so I took out and taped up the two red and black wires, and also the two yellow and red, and yellow and green wires which run into the machines. ( they split up in a box which looks like an A+MC box, but isn't,the box then splits up and feeds 8 lanes)

        (Basically the frame counter will not count if it is not grounded out, or if the actual mechanism is broken through wear and tear.)


        REP - you must notice this when you are bowling every now and then?? Try, if you can, to jump the A+MC plug on a machine and see if you find your expander functions work all the time.?

        I think the machine looks for a return signal from the front of house?? Not sure as too what, but it seems to play a role on the expander board??
        Bring me the freshest "Mean Green" known to man! Juice on!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: X cycle with expanders

          We had that problem with Qubica scoring. If you can (as I recal, you cant on Accuscore) reduce the time between cycle and pin read. (may be able to set the switch on the sweep to a hair trigger)

          We can adjust our delays from trigger to read with Quib. If the delay is too long, the machine is in the middle of a cycle b4 the camera has time to send the signal to the expander.

          Long shot, but movee that switch up as high as it will go, see if you gain the few micro seconds you need......

          Good Luck
          Paul

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: X cycle with expanders

            This is also an occasional problem with the 8230s. On one bothersome lane, I changed the Expander and then the machine chassis but the problem still persists. For convienience, I rewired the long strike but would still like to know what the underlying problem is.

            Jon, do the frameters create problems or are you just throwing out ideas? They are still wired up at our house but I'll eliminate them completely if it solves a problem. Never used them and Advantage counts the frames anyway.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: X cycle with expanders

              I have seen the frameters cause problems when you have scoring. If you figure most of those things are 30+ years old, the components are prone to failure. This can cause problems exspecially when you have an LIU. A lot of people just leave the boxes in and disconnect the wiring. One plus this is that if your LIU takes a dump, you have can turn the machines on from the front desk - but I'd eliminate them if you aren't planning on using them. Since terminals #5 & #6 in the A&MC box is connected to them, I'd take them out of the loop...so to speak. Shorting those 2 pins should power up the machine.

              Jon
              I've had enough of hope & chains.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: X cycle with expanders

                Originally posted by Alastair:
                Yes the the frame meters are still in the system.(managers control switch) I originally thought that they were interfereing with the boards functions so I took out and taped up the two red and black wires, and also the two yellow and red, and yellow and green wires which run into the machines. ( they split up in a box which looks like an A+MC box, but isn't,the box then splits up and feeds 8 lanes)

                (Basically the frame counter will not count if it is not grounded out, or if the actual mechanism is broken through wear and tear.)


                REP - you must notice this when you are bowling every now and then?? Try, if you can, to jump the A+MC plug on a machine and see if you find your expander functions work all the time.?

                I think the machine looks for a return signal from the front of house?? Not sure as too what, but it seems to play a role on the expander board??
                <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I absolutely notice it, it doesn't happen a ton but here and there. I see it when bowling personally and when working (from the back). This is one of the reasons I never yanked the table wiring so it won't set a shadow rack also with our CWC eproms anytime a play arrow isn't up we get no short cycles so I just kinda babysit the wiring, not like the old days, it's just like a secondary system to us. If I notice one lane in particular doing it a lot (moreso than others) I'll definately try and jump the A&amp;MC and let ya know what happens!
                All I want in life is to turn wrenches and climb around pinsetters/pinspotters again :/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: X cycle with expanders

                  Rep, what software version in the CWC's are you using? Just curious....
                  If I had a house, I'd rig up a jumper system to switch the table cable in &amp; out of the circuit - JUST in case. Of course, I like building weird stuff..... [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
                  I've had enough of hope & chains.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: X cycle with expanders

                    OH, BTW the reason you don't get the short strike cycle is due to the software in the CWC. No arrows = no data read from the camera. I think that should be fixed....lil debbie..... [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
                    I've had enough of hope & chains.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: X cycle with expanders

                      The problem Alastair is talking of does not randomly happen.

                      If you look on the Expander card towards the bottom, there is a LED that if lit, the expander will not receive pinfall data. Thus if lit and a strike is bowled no short strike cycle. Older versions of the Expander do not have this LED. It should be lit on second ball, will be faintly lit on first ball with a bad Lane A board.

                      If Alastair puts the bad Lane A board back in and looks at the Expander board the LED will be lit and short cycle will not occur. It is a bad diode on the Lane A board that causes this, but I do not know which diode.

                      I do know that one cause of bad Lane A boards is to change the chassis while the lane is still plugged in (Russell Stole plug).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: X cycle with expanders

                        Good info there smalltwnguy!

                        Will be doing this tonight in the bowl to test/check your theory.

                        JIM DORSIN - I have already thought of this and adjusted the switch to a ball hair, but still it did not fix the problem unfortunatly. This is how I think the machine is reliant on a signal from up front??

                        REP - We run Accuscore + version 4.18 on most CWC and the play arrows DO NOT have to be on for the expander to operate any of its short cycles. Which version do you run?


                        I was bowling on the troublesome lane last night and we bowled over 120 strikes on that lane and only once did the machine do a first ball cycle on a what should have been a strike cycle. The changing out of the Lane A card definetly improved the situation but it is not completely solved. What is the job then of this Lane A card. What part is it playing to the machine even though the LIU is OFF. How can the LIU be taken out completely??
                        Bring me the freshest "Mean Green" known to man! Juice on!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: X cycle with expanders

                          Originally posted by wb8yjf:
                          OH, BTW the reason you don't get the short strike cycle is due to the software in the CWC. No arrows = no data read from the camera. I think that should be fixed....lil debbie..... [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
                          <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Indeed, deb was in on a thread about this software in the AMF Scoring section. We've got the 5.32 eproms in, love the new features/additions in them aside from the no short cycles without play arrows. deb said it's some sort of bug, without the arrow it doesn't know who to give the score to and just never processes the info or something along those lines. It's not too bad having the wiring in still really, during league the only PITA call you get is a wire off and grounding somewhere. they can be off and that's fine when the arrows are up but when they ground ya lose the strike cycle
                          All I want in life is to turn wrenches and climb around pinsetters/pinspotters again :/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: X cycle with expanders

                            Originally posted by Alastair:
                            Good info there smalltwnguy!

                            Will be doing this tonight in the bowl to test/check your theory.

                            JIM DORSIN - I have already thought of this and adjusted the switch to a ball hair, but still it did not fix the problem unfortunatly. This is how I think the machine is reliant on a signal from up front??

                            REP - We run Accuscore + version 4.18 on most CWC and the play arrows DO NOT have to be on for the expander to operate any of its short cycles. Which version do you run?
                            <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Our old eproms were fine (I forget which version we had before 5.32) it's definately in the 5.32 eproms, we always had short cycles before we installed the new eproms
                            All I want in life is to turn wrenches and climb around pinsetters/pinspotters again :/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: X cycle with expanders

                              5.32 was the first time I ever noticed the no short cycle problem. Drove me nuts for awhile...till I figured it out.
                              I've had enough of hope & chains.

                              Comment

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