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  • 50 or 60 Htz motors?

    Are the 70's supposed to have 50 or 60 Htz motors and gearboxes? Or does it even matter as long as the motors are on their matching gearboxes?

    We just discovered that the USED (fourth hand!) machines we got in our new center came with both. And they're all mixed together. We've got 20 motors (Nationals) mated with the wrong gearboxes.

    Also, aren't the 82-70's supposed to have an 8.5 second second ball cycle? Because we also have six refurbished machines that my manager swears are the correct speed but my head mechanic and I think that they're too slow. I timed them on second ball cycle at about 11.5 seconds.
    9th Amendment!

  • #2
    Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

    The 70's can run with either. Typically, the 50hz setup is for overseas applications, but i have heard of houses in the states using them. What you want to try and do is match up cycles on each pinsetter, or if you have to have one faster than the other, make the fast one for the sweep.
    The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it which the merely improbable lacks.

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    • #3
      Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

      I guess we're supposed to get new ones, replacing the 50's. The problem is we need 32 new gearboxes and 16 new motors. Gearboxes shouldn't bee a problem but I think that finding 16 National motors will be difficult.
      9th Amendment!

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      • #4
        Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

        Monkey's got it. You can interchange the 50 and 60 gearboxes and motors... it will just change their speeds slightly. The 50HZ motors run a bit faster on 60HZ power. I believe the 50HZ gearboxes also have different gear ratios as well. We have the 50's on the sweeps, and the 60's on the tables... they run just fine.

        You don't want to put them in the opposite way... the faster table will overrun the sweep and you will get interlocks all over the place. you can fiddle the cams to get around it, but it's easier to leave the cams where they're supposed to be set, and change the gearheads to match.

        Our machines weren't new when installed, either. Lanes 1-16 came from overseas (Japan if I'm correct), and they somehow modified or remanufactured the backend gearboxes as well.. they turn considerably faster than the "stock" ones on 17-30. After watching the pins feed on 1-16, you could fall asleep watching the pin feed on 17-30... there's that much of a difference.
        <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

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        • #5
          Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

          Yeah, I think that some of our BE gearboxes are funky too. We've got big blue pin wheel pulleys on some and regular looking pulleys on others. BUT all of the pinwheels turn at the same speed. Except one. I exchanged that one supersized blue pulley for a smaller one on a machine that was jamming too often and no more problems. Boy, if distributors could sweat that one would have been dripping after one game! Now it works at a nice comfortable speed.

          But hey, does 11.5 seconds seem like a long time for a second ball cycle?
          9th Amendment!

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          • #6
            Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

            Does the supersized blue pulley have a allen-head screw that you can loosen and turn the two halves of the pulley independant of one another? Big heavy sucker? If so, its one of the adjustable sheaves that I tried once and didn't much care for. Theyre ok though, you should be able to use any number of pulleys. I would recommend finding some 4" sheaves (or is it 5") from a company like Grainger. The original "spoked" pulleys turn your pinwheel a bit faster than I ever liked. Smaller is slower and slower is better. In my opinion.

            Never actually timed the cycles, but to tell you the truth, if its running well, i would leave it alone. I never think its a good idea to speed up anything on a '70. Quite the opposite, in fact. Slow down the pinwheels, slow down the pbls, and slow down the calls.

            Good luck to you.
            The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it which the merely improbable lacks.

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            • #7
              Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

              It was big and heavy but it was not the adjustable kind.
              9th Amendment!

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              • #8
                Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

                We have 60 Hz motors running on our 50 Hz net.
                GREAT!!!! Our customers pay by the hour... [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
                So it goes.

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                • #9
                  Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

                  Originally posted by Lampie:
                  We have 60 Hz motors running on our 50 Hz net.
                  GREAT!!!! Our customers pay by the hour... [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
                  <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You aren't serious are you? I was always told that that a 50HZ motor on 60HZ power was OK, it would just run a bit faster... but a 60HZ motor running on 50HZ current would overheat in short order.
                  <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

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                  • #10
                    Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

                    I am serious, no overheating, just moving slow and gently..
                    So it goes.

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                    • #11
                      Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

                      Originally posted by TheGMan143:
                      </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Lampie:
                      We have 60 Hz motors running on our 50 Hz net.
                      GREAT!!!! Our customers pay by the hour... [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
                      <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You aren't serious are you? I was always told that that a 50HZ motor on 60HZ power was OK, it would just run a bit faster... but a 60HZ motor running on 50HZ current would overheat in short order. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It depends on the motor design. Actually it depends on a lot of things, but for a set application (e.g. an 8072 BE motor) the significant factor is the design (and hence brand/model of motor).

                      Assuming voltage is the same, increasing the frequency (using a 50Hz motor on 60Hz) will make it run faster and have a lower maximum torque (a consequence of the increased inductance of the winding). Assuming these motors are slightly over rated for the application in terms of load, then it would be okay. It also makes it less likely to be a problem on the sweep than the table or BE (less load on sweep).

                      Lowering the frequency (using a 60Hz motor on 50Hz) decreases the speed and the winding inductance and thus increases the current. The maximum torque increases too. However, the increased current may overwhelm the motor's design in terms of heat disipation and/or maximum winding current. I say 'may', because it depends on how much the motor is over-rated in the first place for the particular application. It is also likely to affect related items such as a start switch relay or solid state start switch.

                      Andrew.

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                      • #12
                        Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

                        I made a mistake!!
                        Our motors are 50 Hz, our GEARBOXES are made for 60 HZ, I'm talking about Nationals..
                        That's probably the reason we don't have problems
                        Sorry...
                        So it goes.

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                        • #13
                          Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

                          Andrew: I can understand that...I just never really dug into it that much (and since we don't use 50HZ power anywhere around here, I've never had the opportunity to try it) I kinda figured the 50HZ motors ran faster on 60 because the stator winding "steps" that pull the rotor around were 'spaced' differently for the lower frequency, than 60Hz motors were. It kind of made sense, since putting 60 on a 50 would just force the rotor to 'jump' from field to field faster, creating fgaster rotation. A motor wound for 60 runing on 50, the "jumps" would be spaced too far apart, making the fields pull harder to move the otor from field to field... drawing more current to do so, and overheating in the process. Sounds like it would make a pretty interesting science fair project... [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

                          Lampie: That would shed some more light on it... Yea, if you have 60 gearboxes on the 50 motors, they do run slower. Ours are also Nationals across the house.

                          One day, I really want to pull apart a "stock" backend gearbox from 17-30, and a "modified" one from 1-16, and see just what the difference is. All the pulleys on our machines are AMF OEM and they're all the same size, the gearbox housings have no noticeable external differences, yet there is a NOTICEABLE speed difference in pinfeed / backend speed.
                          <span style="font-style: italic">Educatio est omnium efficacissima forma rebellionis</span>

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                          • #14
                            Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

                            The number of times the voltage reverses direction (50 or 60 times per second) will be the designers factor in a motor windings spacing and number for a desired RPM.
                            So, if the only change is the frequency (or how many times the voltage changes direction), the difference will be the speed the magnetic fields chase each other around this cylinder.
                            The difference between the number 50 and 60 is 82.6% one way and 120% the other. That happens to be the difference in speed running one motor on the other Hz.
                            .
                            .
                            .
                            This post is not an unpaid promotion of my business.

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                            • #15
                              Re: 50 or 60 Htz motors?

                              Some interesting reading can be found on
                              Leesons web site .
                              Triac and Andrew must write a book about it too!
                              So it goes.

                              Comment

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