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  • Electrical ponder

    Two electric contractors have left scratching their heads....

    WHY is the back end motor plug still 'hot' with the BE switch AND the white master CB turned off ? [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif[/img] I have to kill the breaker in the main box on the back wall (Or pull the Russell Stohl) to keep from being juiced on the BE motor plug.

    ( One guy accused the installers of 'switching wires' during the install) 14 years ago !!!
    But the place runs ok.

    The BE's are 'switched' thru the neutral.

    ideas ?
    I never had a "10" ;..but ,one night after closing,..I did five " 2's" !

  • #2
    Re: Electrical ponder

    Rewire the pinsetter chassis so that the BE relay switches the hot leg(s).

    You kinda answered your own question above, so that would be my guess. Remember, the PIT toggle on the control box only switches the 24VAC for the coil of the BE relay.

    There are more elaborate setups available, but this fix should suffice.

    "Where are we going, and why are we in a hand basket?"

    --Kat

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Electrical ponder

      Originally posted by Kat:
      Rewire the pinsetter chassis so that the BE relay switches the hot leg(s).

      You kinda answered your own question above, so that would be my guess. Remember, the PIT toggle on the control box only switches the 24VAC for the coil of the BE relay.

      There are more elaborate setups available, but this fix should suffice.

      <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But the white master CB is kicked.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Electrical ponder

        Jerry, agreed that the CB is tripped. However, if the chassis (or whatever) is siwtching the neutrals, then the hot leg coming from TS-19 normally would not be switched off from the loss of coil power to the BE relay by the CB being off. Perhaps it is wired wrong somewhere along the line between TS-19 and the BE motor plug--like the TSC block. The CB cuts the hots...not the neutral.

        I'll have to think about this some more.

        "Where are we going, and why are we in a hand basket?"

        --Kat

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Electrical ponder

          The contacts from the BE relay break or make the hot side of the BE plug depending whether the coil is energized or not. The neutral side of the BE plug is always present unless the main supply is broke by the RS plug or wall breaker.

          For an SS chassis, the white CB breaks the T2 secondary so that no low (control) voltage can operate the M and M2 followed by a series of relays needed to run things like BE relay, sweep relay…ect.

          For an MP chassis, the white CB breaks the T1, 3 and 4 primaries which break the corresponding secondary’s that control the same things as above.

          So if voltage is present to the BE plug, it was wired direct instead of the BE contacts or the contacts are fused together. The BE switch on the control box only breaks the juice to the BE coil and not the BE contacts.

          Triac

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Electrical ponder

            If the wires on the C1 plug are in-correctly wired then this will occur. The back end will not turn off from the toggle switch.

            On the top row of the C1 plug pins 4 and 5 (I think) are reversed. (These go into the back-end relay and Master relay)

            All you need to do is reverse these two wires and the problem will dissappear.

            Since how the Master switch will not stop the motor either, then I would hazard a guess that the be capacitor could be touching the motor casing and the b.e will still run regardless what you do. You can pull the c1, chassis, etc , and the motor will still run. (long shot, but have had this happen before to me)

            As triac says, the be relay in the chassis will probably be fused together. Tap the chassis and see if the b.e stops.
            Bring me the freshest "Mean Green" known to man! Juice on!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Electrical ponder

              Clarification....BE motors STOP when BE switch is turned off. All machine functions STOP when the white CB is turned off.

              BUT,...When EITHER BE switch AND/OR master CB is off....hot terminal in the BE plug is still hot.

              It's been that way since they were installed(92),,they run fine..it's just that if you unplug a BE motor &amp; plug it back in...you'd better have the plug lined up PERFECTLY ,cause if you touch a side of the receptacle ..SPARKY !
              I never had a "10" ;..but ,one night after closing,..I did five " 2's" !

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Electrical ponder

                Had this happen In Utah. Found that Neutral and ground in the Russel Stole were reversed. The hot leg was coming into the machine, going into the aplication, out of the aplication and into the switch. When you disconected power, you were actualy breaking the circuit BEHIND the switch, thus still having power into the aplication. (this wreked havoc on my 24 V relays in my Magic score.... constant backdoor 48 volts)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Electrical ponder

                  Russell Stoll plugs should be wired so that when you are looking at the plug with the ground lug on top the hot wire should be to the right and the neutral to the left.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Electrical ponder

                    For those who may not know :

                    Inside the Russell Stoll plug,the black ( hot ) wire should go to the #1 terminal and the white ( nuetral ) wire should go to the #2 terminal. There are small numbers stamped next to the terminals.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Electrical ponder

                      Originally posted by Pindecked:

                      The BE's are 'switched' thru the neutral.

                      ideas ?
                      <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well lets forget i know anything about bowling for a mo and have my electricians head on.......

                      Switches/isolators/breakers/fuses etc, you name it ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS should be placed in line with the live (HOT) wire and not the neutral. Dont forget that you will get a voltage from live to neutral (i.e. normal power situation) and also from live to earth. So if the switches are in the live then when they are "off" there can be no voltage between any terminal.

                      Now in your situation, the switch will turn off only the neutral - therefore you can still get voltage and therefore a shock between live and earth - not a good idea.


                      BUT
                      Knowing how great the wiring in an amf chassis can be..............

                      There must be a permanent source of "live" in the motor plug for you to be getting a shock from this. Therefore something in the chassis cannot be wired correctly, or if it is - shoot the designer now.

                      Its problems like this i love to sink my teeth into, but its a pain not actually being there without my test gear.

                      Let me know what you find out
                      If Wile E coyote has enough money to by all that Acme crap why doesnt he buy his dinner?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Electrical ponder

                        I remeber this from back when I was with AMF. If I recall correctly, there was a wiring revision in the chassis that was implemented 'later' to correct the problem. Indeed at one time the BE A.C. was live even with the switches off. I found out the hard way too - zaaaap! One of these days maybe I can locate the drawing with the revision; if so, I'll post it.

                        Jon
                        I've had enough of hope & chains.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Electrical ponder

                          Thanks folks..

                          What an asset we have here with Bowl-Tech!!

                          [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/143.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/143.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/143.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/143.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/143.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/143.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/143.gif[/img] [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/143.gif[/img]
                          I never had a "10" ;..but ,one night after closing,..I did five " 2's" !

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Electrical ponder

                            checked the RS plug....hot to #1 ..neutral to #2
                            I never had a "10" ;..but ,one night after closing,..I did five " 2's" !

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Electrical ponder

                              Funny this, one of our new boys came up to me and said he had been electrocuted [img]/content/btubb/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]
                              After picking myself of the floor for
                              a: laughing at his great grammer skills and
                              b: actually getting a shock

                              i asked him how.

                              30's btw.

                              He was resetting the distribitor and didnt realise that picking up the dizzy whilst the pin counter wasnt on zero....................
                              If Wile E coyote has enough money to by all that Acme crap why doesnt he buy his dinner?

                              Comment

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