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  • ETU diagnostic tool

    I've posted before about wanting to try and figure out how to fix these trigger boards we have. I'm trying to map the thing out and create a schematic, but it's slow going, especially because I really haven't done anything like this in decades. (Plus, honestly, I failed the course.) Anyway, I was poking around and found a post from 2012 asking for directions to use the diagnostic tool. I wasn't aware such a thing existed. Is anyone familiar with this?
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Which boards are you trying to repair. What can we do to help you?

    Comment


    • #3
      The electronic trigger boards, that Brunswick makes.
      I have 11 dead boards, and would love to be able to troubleshoot these things.

      I have a tester for the standard time delay modules, but these boards are a different animal.
      Most of them show no power, even with a good fuse installed.

      Comment


      • #4
        Right you are.

        I've got some of it traced, but not all; and it's raised more questions. Example: we've got 24VAC coming in on 13/14. One of the traces looks like it's connected directly to one side of the coil for the relay that closes 19/20. The problem? Those relays have a 5VDC coil. Now, there is in fact a voltage regulator on there (7805) that's supposed to take a DC input and spit out 5VDC, if I'm reading it right. So: where is the bridge rectifier to convert AC to DC? Why feed input voltage directly to the relay coil and not run it through the rectifier/regulator first? I've got one board here that smoked some of the traces, and those are directly connected to the regulator. Is there any way to test those without feeding it input voltage? That thing makes me nervous.



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        • #5
          Like Mok, I inherited a BRC in 2014. The ETU's were a thorn in my side. I eventually changed the remaining ones out with a Quality TDM. Then we got rid of Vector, so now I can get rid of the TDM's with a relay. But with Vector scoring, or even Sync, doesn't the scoring rely on the trigger switch still? Can someone clarify? Luckily I've been able to repair quite a few Quality TDM's. The factory soldering is awful. Usually that is what has failed for me.

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          • #6
            Vector scoring has a seperate sweep switch, that tells the scoring if the rake is in the up position.
            Vector has its own triggering (hooks into the reset button wiring), if the rake fails to drop.

            Im going to study the ETUs more closely, the next time Im in the house that uses them.
            I have Zot time delays in my home house.

            Comment


            • #7
              This is the board?

              Only evere repaired one or two but that was an incredibly long time ago. If I find any notes on them I'll pass it on. If I had more time to spare I'd help you reverse engineer it. At the very least the pictures might help someone do it with you.
              You do not have permission to view this gallery.
              This gallery has 2 photos.
              Factory & Converted A-2 (US, Ger, Jap)
              Comscore ECT, Matrix & DuoHD
              Walker B, Sanction Standard, Original K, Flex Walker & Ikon
              Kegel C.A.T.S

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Wookie8662 View Post
                Vector scoring has a seperate sweep switch, that tells the scoring if the rake is in the up position.
                Apparently that's not so much a Vector thing as it is an ETU thing; this according to the install/operation manual I found a while back, plus we've had these things since long before we got Vector. When I first started, it was AS-80s.

                Vector has its own triggering (hooks into the reset button wiring), if the rake fails to drop.
                Ties into the camera board, IIRC.

                Originally posted by Bruns-man20
                I eventually changed the remaining ones out with a Quality TDM. Then we got rid of Vector, so now I can get rid of the TDM's with a relay. But with Vector scoring, or even Sync, doesn't the scoring rely on the trigger switch still?
                Now that you mention it, I think I have a Quality TDM I got as an emergency spare and have never used. According to the manual I mentioned earlier, were I to install it I would have to move a wire on the rake switch inside the box in order to get it to cycle on a rake drop. As for scoring with Vector, that's a ball detect thing. The emitter has to see the beam go away and come back, not only for triggering but for scoring as well. Many a time I've had to deal with a complaint of "it's not scoring" because the emitter was out of alignment, the reflector bracket had come loose, or the reflector itself had come off or was flat out broken.

                I did some more glaring at the donor board I've been trying to decipher; I got a bunch more stuff at least drawn out, and I think I did manage to find the bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitor I was looking for. If I can get those last few components traced, maybe I can start trying to make the drawings look like they're making sense.

                I keep wondering how feasible it would be to try and build something around an Arduino board. The code shouldn't be that hard, I wouldn't think... right?

                Originally posted by Kanga
                This is the board?
                Kindasorta. I see the optocoupler on yours, but not the rom chip. If I don't already have some, I'll see about putting up a picture or two.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mok View Post
                  Right you are.

                  I've got some of it traced, but not all; and it's raised more questions. Example: we've got 24VAC coming in on 13/14. One of the traces looks like it's connected directly to one side of the coil for the relay that closes 19/20. The problem? Those relays have a 5VDC coil. Now, there is in fact a voltage regulator on there (7805) that's supposed to take a DC input and spit out 5VDC, if I'm reading it right. So: where is the bridge rectifier to convert AC to DC? Why feed input voltage directly to the relay coil and not run it through the rectifier/regulator first? I've got one board here that smoked some of the traces, and those are directly connected to the regulator. Is there any way to test those without feeding it input voltage? That thing makes me nervous.


                  There are a few different versions of those boards. If you can post a picture of the front and back of your board it would be helpful. Make sure they are nice clean pictures like the ones James posted. We need to make out the parts on the front and the traces on the back. If the pics are blurry, it makes them hard to trace the circuits. If you can't get the camera to pick up the part numbers of the chips, just list them separately but still take a pic of the board. Below are a couple pictures of yet another board. I don't remember where I got these pics so if someone recognizes them, thanks again. However, based on your description, I suspect this is the board you have. Still take good pictures of your boards though.

                  Depending on which board you have, it probably doesn't have a rectifier on it or at least not a bridge rectifier in the manner you are thinking about. If you notice on the picture James posted, the trace from terminal 13 goes to the fuse. From there, a diode is connected to the other end of the fuse. I only did a quick overview of this board but this diode appears to be the only rectification for the low voltage. Attached to the cathode of the diode is the large capacitor that is located just above the fuse. This is providing the filtering for the DC and should give about 35 VDC peak voltage. This is then fed into the 7805 to drop the voltage down to 5 volts. There are a few high wattage resistors on the board that are used for various voltage drop purposes. The single diode only provides half wave rectification and so this is not the most efficient way of doing things but for low current circuits this is fine. If you look at the trace coming off of the pin 14, looking at the back side of the board, this connects to a resistor but also provides ground for the DC circuitry. You can see this connects to the filter capacitor discussed a second ago as well as the trace running to several other components on the board. My guess is this is likely the trace you are curious about that goes directly to the 5 volt relay. However, these are usually controlled by switching the low side of the relay so don't quote me on that just yet.

                  Think of the 7805 like a water filter in your house. You probably just want to filter water for drinking and not the water that will go to the lawn, wash machine, shower, or event the toilet. Tap water is fine for those purposes. Similarly, with the 7805, you don't want to supply everything from it, just the items that need the cleaner voltage it can provide.

                  It's ok if the relay isn't provided power from the 7805. The relay turning on and off can cause power surges that can affect the microcontroller that is being supplied power from the 7805. The micro controller needs a cleaner supply voltage than does the relay. By removing the relay supply from the 7805 it helps prevent noise on the supply that can cause interference in the microcontroller operation or even cause the voltage to drop low enough forcing the micro controller to brown out and restart. If you ever started a large power tool in your garage and noticed the lights go dim, this is the same thing that happens when the relay turns on and drops power to the microcontroller. The relay just needs somewhere around 5 VDC. This can be obtained with another diode and possibly, but not necessarily, a current limiting resistor to drop the voltage. A transistor is then used to control the relay from the micro controller. An opto coupler can also be thrown in the mix to provide further isolation.

                  This is one method anyhow and we would need to see which board you actually have to say for certain.

                  The best way to work on these is to get a 24 V transformer for your work bench. If you have a spare from the machine that will work or you can run down to the local big box store and get one. You can usually find them in with the doorbells or you can grab one in the underground sprinkler section as a plug in wall wart type. That's all the voltage you need. You don't need the 240 V to work on them and so it is much safer.

                  Once you post your pictures, we can start guiding you through points to check voltages to see what's good and where problems might be. I don't have a schematic from this board nor do I have one of those boards so your pictures are all we have to go on.
                  Attached Files

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                  • #10
                    Wow. There's a lot in here to go over.

                    Originally posted by exMech View Post
                    There are a few different versions of those boards.
                    Don't I know it. I think I've got a few of that style board you've posted, but that's not the flavor I'm working with right now.

                    If you can post a picture of the front and back of your board it would be helpful. Make sure they are nice clean pictures like the ones James posted. We need to make out the parts on the front and the traces on the back.
                    I remember taking a bunch of closeups (and printed them out, even) to try and do the circuit tracing, but damned if I can find them. I just took some shots with the standalone 4MP camera, and I'll put those up in a separate post.

                    If the pics are blurry, it makes them hard to trace the circuits. If you can't get the camera to pick up the part numbers of the chips, just list them separately but still take a pic of the board.
                    With the board I'm tracing out, I've removed most of the resistors and diodes to get a better look at some of the traces, and to also get the part designations (R12, D13, etc). The pics I'll be putting up are from a separate board.

                    Depending on which board you have, it probably doesn't have a rectifier on it or at least not a bridge rectifier in the manner you are thinking about.
                    A few days back I was watching a Big Clive video on Youtube and saw where he was taking a wall light apart. In the power supply was a chip; he pulled down the datasheet for the chip, and pointed out the bridge rectifier. As it turns out, it looked exactly like part of the drawing I've made. I'll put it up alongside the board photos.

                    It's ok if the relay isn't provided power from the 7805. The relay turning on and off can cause power surges that can affect the microcontroller that is being supplied power from the 7805. The micro controller needs a cleaner supply voltage than does the relay.
                    I'm not concerned with how clean the voltage to the relay coil is so much as how much of it. I'm sure you'll agree that it's probably a bad thing to feed 24V into a 5V coil, however intermittent.

                    The best way to work on these is to get a 24 V transformer for your work bench. If you have a spare from the machine that will work or you can run down to the local big box store and get one. You can usually find them in with the doorbells or you can grab one in the underground sprinkler section as a plug in wall wart type. That's all the voltage you need. You don't need the 240 V to work on them and so it is much safer.
                    I've been furloughed since July, so I'm doing this from home. (Might as well do *something* useful with all this idle time, yes?) I've even gone so far as to break out my 35 year-old copies of Electricity 1-7 and Electronics 1-7 I had bought when I went to school in 29 Palms back in the day. I'll look into getting that transformer from Home Despot or some such -- thank you. I actually hadn't thought of that.

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                    • #11
                      Here are the board pics plus one from the drawings I'm trying to make. This video is the teardown I mentioned. Go to about 14:30 for the part where he shows off the datasheet for the chip. I can put up the parts list I've compiled, but it's incomplete as yet.

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                      This gallery has 3 photos.

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                      • #12
                        I took a quick look at your pictures and made the following observations:

                        1) There is no bride rectifier component on this board. I haven't looked that in depth so they may be using 4 diodes to build a bride rectifier for one of the inputs sensors but there certainly isn't a single component that does this here. There are only 3 ic's on the board; 1 that I assume is a microcontroller, 1 that appears to be a ps2501-4 which would be a quad opto-isolator and the regulator which you identified as a 7805. We also know this because the ground is returning directly to the AC line and you can't do this with a bridge rectifier.

                        2) You can rest easily. Your relays are being driven by the 5 volts from the regulator. In the picture below, I have highlighted the traces that show this. The blue traces are the positive traces on the component side of the board, the red traces are the positive traces on the bottom side of the board, and the bright green show the ground path. I only did this for the two relays at this point. Starting at the voltage regulator output, the trace (blue) runs along the top side of the board to the positive of the bypass capacitor for the microcontroller. It then drops to the bottom of the board where it splits with one branch going to the supply for the micro controller. The other branch runs along the edge of the board to what I will assume to be PNP bipolar transistors. We need part numbers to further identify them. From the transistor, the trace continues on to the respective relay. On the ground side of the relay, the trace goes back to terminal 14.

                        So to summarize, the relays are high side switched using PNP transistors with supply voltage coming from the regulator and ground returning to terminal 14.

                        3) It appears the voltage being fed into the regulator is half wave rectified. It's hard to tell from the pictures but with some assumptions, it appears the voltage comes from terminal 13, through the fuse and into the diode. It is then filtered by the large capacitor.

                        It appears the filtered voltage goes through the large 150 ohm (if I read it correctly) resistor before connecting to the 7805(?) regulator. The resistor will drop some of the voltage so the regulator doesn't have to work so hard and won't get as hot. Heat can cause instability in the regulator so it's good to reduce it before hand.

                        This needs to be confirmed as it's hard to tell in the picture.

                        A lot of the components on the board are used to shape the input signals to a level suitable to be fed into the micro controller. There are also resistors to limit current to the led indicator lights. These are fairly straight forward and won't take much to map.

                        The picture of the bottom of the board was pretty good. Something you might try is to put a back light behind it so the traces on the top of the board show up when you take a picture of the bottom. Take pictures with and without backlight. I may be necessary to have several photos of the board to properly document it.

                        Edit: Remove the sticker from the bottom of the board so we can see what's going on there. We wouldn't want to miss a trace because it was hidden by the sticker.

                        For reference, I posted a picture of a foul light board I am working on. This is a photo of the top side of the board, but you can see the traces, which are on the bottom side of the board, show through making it easier to see which components attach where and where traces simply travel between component terminals. Usually, a combination of multiple pictures is necessary to be able to properly trace the board.

                        Your photo of the top of the board is hard to follow traces on. There is a shadow above the terminal screws and the angle has some components blocking others. It may be necessary to take several photos. One from straight above and then other angles in congested areas. This is especially true around the fuse and regulator areas. As we are trying to trace circuits here, we need to be able to see the traces and where the components tie into them. We can make some assumptions but I'd rather not if we can avoid it.

                        Also, take some isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol and a cue tip and clean up components that are dirty so we can see the markings on them. Also clean the board up so the traces stand out and smudges aren't mistaken for something else. For example, the diode just above the fuse is hard to see where the cathode indicator band is. We can make assumptions on some of these but it's better to be sure for accuracy.

                        All and all, we are off to a good start. From what you posted, we were able to answer a lot of questions.

                        In addition to the photo of the foul light board, I have included two other pictures. One is of the component side of that board. I imported the picture of the board into sketchup, scaled it to actual size and then identified the resistors and diodes. I have a duplicate of this in which I have labeled the remaining components (not shown here) so to avoid overly congested photos. The other pic is of the bottom side of the board. Rather that making a schematic of boards, I will often do this to document the board in an electronic file. That way I can always reference the file and get all the part numbers without having to have a board and without having to find part numbers that may be hard to find. I also have the size of the board and connectors in the event I need to build a new board. Also, if I need to build a schematic of all or part of the board, I can usually do it from these drawings.

                        BTW - I have the Electricity 1-7 book. I got that book a long, long, long time ago. Your really digging in the archives for that one.
                        Attached Files

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                        • #13
                          The regulator is an LM340T5 I believe.
                          The power is indeed half wave rectified, using only 1 diode before hitting the voltage regulator, from terminal 13.

                          Thats as far as I have gotten on the board last night.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by exMech View Post
                            I took a quick look at your pictures and made the following observations:

                            1) There is no bridge rectifier component on this board. I haven't looked that in depth so they may be using 4 diodes to build a bridge rectifier for one of the inputs sensors but there certainly isn't a single component that does this here
                            Correct. Reference the third picture I put up yesterday; it's composed of diodes D13, D14, D18 and D19, unless I miss my guess. Lower right corner of the board near the three-pin connectors. C4 just above it for the smoothing capacitor to make it more... "DC like". As mentioned earlier, it's a close match with the one inside the chip for that video.

                            I'll sit down and see about wrapping my head around this a little later and put up a more detailed reply. Maybe put up a picture of that board where I mentioned the traces coming off the regulator got smoked.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Reference your drawing, you can use four diodes in this configuration to create a bridge rectifier. This is fairly common. However, as you have it drawn, it isn't correct. For reference, the picture below shows the 4 diode bridge rectifier in it's proper configuration.

                              During the positive half of the AC cycle, current would go through the top AC line to the upper left diode and to the positive rail. It would charge the capacitor and travel through the load. It then returns to the bottom right diode and returns to the AC supply on the bottom AC line. During the negative half of the AC cycle, current would go through the bottom AC line to the upper right diode and to the positive rail. It would charge the capacitor and travel through the load. It then returns to the bottom left diode and returns to the AC supply on the top AC line.

                              Comparing this to what you have:

                              1) Your capacitor positive terminals don't go anywhere. Need to trace that out. If one or two of those is being used as filtering caps, the positive would need to be tied to the positive rail.
                              2) The AC would feed in at the diode junction for D13/D14 and the diode junction D18/19. You show the D18/D19 junction being fed from the left pin of the display connector which is unused and the wire coming from the upper right side of the page. It doesn't show where this wire/trace goes. This would need to work in conjunction with whatever is feeding D13/D14 junction.
                              3) The D13/D14 junction in your drawing is being fed by whatever is connected to D19 on the left side of the page and/or some type of feedback resistor to ground at the negative of the capacitor. I'm not sure why they would have two diodes in series like this in this situation. D19 would block half of the AC signal and defeat the purpose of using a bridge rectifier whose purpose is to convert both halves of the AC signal to DC. Furthermore, It serves no function to tie the anode and cathode of D14 together like this. Even if an AC signal was coming in through D19, it would send a positive voltage to the negative side of the capacitor. This would create a dead short.
                              4) D21 has it's cathode tied to the positive rail. Since the diode needs to have the cathode at a lower voltage than the anode to conduct, tying the cathode to the positive rail will prevent it from ever conducting and so would apparently serve no function.
                              5) I'm not sure what purpose D20 is servicing. Also you show a double trace between D20 and D21. I'm not sure what this is.

                              There are other issues as well but I think this is enough to show that something is not right here. Please don't take this as though I'm attacking your progress, I'm just trying to help you understand what the circuits on this board are doing.

                              So even though you have the components of a bridge rectifier, we can't tell from your drawing what's going on. It's not enough to have the components, they also have to be connected in the correct configuration.

                              I think you have some errors in your drawing. Also, we can't tell from the pictures of the board, what exactly is going on here. When you post better pictures of this area, we can better identify the circuitry. This may very well be a bridge rectifier but based on what we have here, we simply don't know.

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