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  • Prototype Foul Cycle questions

    Hi all,
    I was looking through older Brunswick patents and found one about a foul cycle, below is a diagram showing the extra solenoid, spring, and mechanism to do a foul cycle:
    FoulPatent.png
    Curiously, I had my friend with the Garage Bowling Alley check their 3774 serial pinsetter and it still has the linkage, but it is missing the solenoid and spring.
    FoulLever.png
    After getting the lever loosened and pulled up with a hook, it did a successful foul cycle where it blocked the scissors and set it to 2nd ball after the cycle finished. The issue we are facing now is that the mechanism seems to be tensioned counterclockwise after the cycle and the lever won't lower itself back into the resting state after 270, causing it to stay in 2nd ball and repeat the cycle. The only way to get it back down is to either force it into 1st ball or push down on the lever. The videos shown below demonstrate this:


    Any ideas as to why this could be happening? It seems like it is getting caught up on the standing pins selector.
    I am also requesting if someone else such as
    mickeygm
    Members
    mickeygm who has the foul cycle linkage could try doing this to see if the same thing happens or if the lever will lower back down at 270 into the resting position.

  • #2
    There are a lot of patents that never get implemented. You may or may not have the version referred to in the patent. It's hard to tell with the information and pictures provided.

    However, there was a version that was implemented. Attached, you will find a few pages from the Sync scoring system that took advantage of this. It uses a new pin solenoid (NPS) to perform this function in the manner you described. The NPS basically just pulls the detector into second ball. If you wanted the foul function, you needed to install an optional link kit to make this work. I've included the pages that explains this in detail but basically, it pulls the detector into a strike situation. This locks out the scissors so the pins aren't picked up and any standing pins are swept away. New pins are set just as in a strike. Then when the strike puts the machine back at ball 1, the NPS will pull the machine into 2nd ball again with an additional pull at 0 degrees so the machine will be ready for second ball with a full set of pins on the deck.

    Because the machine is on second ball, it should return to first ball at 270 degrees like normal. If you are having trouble getting the machine to go to first ball, you make have something that is sticking holding the strike selector counter clock wise. This wouldn't show in normal operation because the NPS link doesn't pull the detector into a strike situation unless it's told to do so.

    Let us know what you find.
    Attached Files

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by exMech View Post
      There are a lot of patents that never get implemented. You may or may not have the version referred to in the patent. It's hard to tell with the information and pictures provided.

      Because the machine is on second ball, it should return to first ball at 270 degrees like normal. If you are having trouble getting the machine to go to first ball, you make have something that is sticking holding the strike selector counter clock wise. This wouldn't show in normal operation because the NPS link doesn't pull the detector into a strike situation unless it's told to do so.

      Let us know what you find.
      The foul cycle does work as intended, up until 270. When it starts the cycle, at around 45 degrees it will force the standing pins selector into 2nd ball, block the scissors and sweep the pins, moves back into 1st ball from 180-270, then at 270 it will move into 2nd ball again. The next cycle in its "proper" condition would be a normal 2nd ball cycle and then back to 1st ball, but because of the foul cycle linkage not resetting back into its disengaged position, it will get stuck doing the foul cycle until it gets forced back into its normal state. It's why I was wanting someone else to try this to see if it could be a timing issue on this detector.

      Here is a video of the full cycle:

      Comment


      • #4
        There was also a automatic mechanical OOR mechanism. Both original concepts have been discussed and explained in detail previously on this site. You could try searching the site.
        Steve Stafford, who in my opinion is the most knowledgeable person in the world when it comes to Brunswick A and A2 explains how both mechanisms were intended to work.

        Comment


        • #5
          My recollection of this was different. I had two houses, both 3000 serial #'s Green Monsters, that both have this linkage. (I am No longer at either of them). It was explained to me that there was a second bank of switches at the mangers control panel which were connected to this "Second Ball" solenoid. During practice, the manager could energize this second solenoid during the pre-league Practice session so that the bowlers would always have a full set of pins, (with the machine remaining constantly on Second Ball). Then when practice was over, they de-energize the solenoid letting the machine go back to normal operation. This info was from the 70's. I did try it back then a few times, Manually engaging the linkage and it did work as advertised. I do seem to remember that it would automatically go back into normal operation if you did nothing.?? You may need to clean the detector and get the linkage well lubed so it doesn't bind up and remain on Second Ball. Who knows, what intent they really had but it looks like it could be used for several purposes like the one ExM pointed out.
          Everything has to be Somewhere !!

          Comment


          • #6
            I did a little research on your detector and found the drawing in the old parts catalog. This shows the additional components you have on the left end of the B shaft. The detector I have doesn't have these but I pulled the side of my detector to see if I could tell where your issue might be coming from. I also downloaded your latest video and did a frame by frame on it. The below two pictures are captures from that video.

            From the parts manual, consider parts GB270, GB271 and GB273. The first thing to note is that none of these parts are pinned to the B shaft and so they should be able to freely rotate on the shaft. When you use your hook to pull on GB271, this causes the lever to rotate CCW. This in combination with the latch catches the strike selector and forces it out from the strike cam follower so the strike cycle will run. This causes the D shaft to rotate and lock out the scissors so any standing pins are swept away. When it's all done, GB270 is responsible for returning everything to the original position with the aid of the spring shown in your video.

            shaft b.jpg

            strike.jpg

            The first picture from your video shows the detector just before the strike controller and strike selector come back together. The red arrow shows the gap between the two is visible. Also note the orange line to the left showing the relative position of GB270 and GB271. In the second picture from your video is the frame directly following the first. This shows that the gap in strike mechanism has closed as shown by the red arrow. This tells us the strike selector isn't binding or causing the problem. Additionally note that GB270 and GB271 have each rotated CW slightly.

            pic 1.jpg

            pic 2.jpg


            But as you stated in the video, they don't return to the start position and you have to manually push them back. The fact that you can push them indicates that there isn't a lever or any such thing physically preventing them from moving. Also since the gap in the strike selector and strike controller has closed, we can tell that the strike selector isn't preventing them from moving. I'm not sure why these not returning fully to the start position is causing the issue because there isn't enough information. But you say that if you push them back, everything works ok so lets start by trying to get them back.

            Finally, notice the spring I have circled in the two pictures. Note that in the first picture there is a little tension but not much. In the second picture there is even less and from the picture, it appears the tension is pretty much gone. Now this has been a long explanation to simply say, I don't think your spring is doing it's job. But hey, I had to let you know I did put some effort into it.

            The spring is to pull on GB270 which will pull on GB271 to return everything to the start position. I don't think there is enough pull left in the spring to do that. I think it is the pull from spring G275 (the spring pulling the strike selector and controller together) that is actually moving it the distance it does.

            Try putting some more tension on the spring and see if that helps. Maybe try spraying a little WD40 to see if you can lubricate things up a bit. I don't imagine these have moved in a while. If you can get things moving, then consider giving it a good cleaning.

            Keep us informed.,

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by exMech View Post

              The spring is to pull on GB270 which will pull on GB271 to return everything to the start position. I don't think there is enough pull left in the spring to do that. I think it is the pull from spring G275 (the spring pulling the strike selector and controller together) that is actually moving it the distance it does.

              Try putting some more tension on the spring and see if that helps. Maybe try spraying a little WD40 to see if you can lubricate things up a bit. I don't imagine these have moved in a while. If you can get things moving, then consider giving it a good cleaning.

              Keep us informed.,
              I should have also stated that if you were to push down on the lever on GB271 partially while it is in the "locked" state and let go, it will jump back CCW to where it was, It seems like either the bottom of GB271 or GB273 could be incorrectly touching the standing pins selector or somehow the standing pins cam follower. I don't see any other way it can be directly interacting with the C shaft the way it is after the cycle. I'll have some more experiments done and try to see if there is a good spot to see the end of the standing pins selector arm.

              Comment


              • #8
                Well, nothing on TV tonight and I was a little board. Besides, I have found your project interesting. So, I set out to see if I could find out how this thing works. Turns out, the answers were in the original patent document you referred to. I downloaded the full version and after tip toeing through some incredible references, I was able to make some sense of it. Here is the abridged version.

                First we need to make some connections to something we might understand. The patent version is full of numbers for reference. Here is a cross reference.

                This picture shows the cams from the patent and from parts book. Cam 449 and cam ring 572 from the patent drawings are identified here.


                fig8a.jpg


                cams.jpg


                Basically, cam GB247 from the parts manual is what cam 449 in the patent refers to. This cam has 3 levels. Cam ring 572 from the patent refers to the middle level.

                The patent document also refers to projection 578. This is shown below as part of GB276 commonly knows as the strike selector.

                dwg7.jpg


                strike selector.jpg


                In the following text from the patent,

                Figures 18 and 19 shows how these go together. Note, an individual part may have multiple numbers to reference different areas of the part.

                Nose 571 and arm 564 are referenced to part GB273 from the parts manual.
                Arms 561 and 563 are referenced to part GB271 from the parts manual.
                Projection 566 is referenced to part GB270 from the parts manual.
                "New set " latch 458 commonly known as the strike selector.
                Spring 462 is referenced as part GB275 in the parts manual which is the spring pulling the strike selector and strike controller together.
                "New set" lever 470 is the strike cam follower.
                Flag 351 (not shown in these drawings) is the moving deck / scissors latch.
                Latch 492 commonly known as the standing pins selector.
                Two ball frame lever 502 commonly known as the standing pins cams follower.

                This will provide reference for the description of operation from the patent document. I will include parts of that document below. If anyone wants to download the full document, you can find it here.

                https://patents.google.com/patent/US2946591

                For those that don't want to read the patent document, here is a summary. GB270, GB271 and GB273 are free to rotate on the B shaft. In order for the foul cycle to run. two conditions must be met. 1) a foul signal from the foul light must be present and 2) the gearbox must be triggered. If only a foul signal is received then the signal will time out as no ball trigger will be present and so no foul operation will run.

                When both conditions have been met, the foul solenoid will pull GB270, GB271 and GB273 rearward in a CCW rotation. This will cause the nose on GB273 to catch the middle level of cam GB247 (cam 449). This will further rotate the 3 components causing the strike selector to rotate CCW lifting it out of the way of the strike cam follower. This will cause the D shaft to rotate and lock out the scissors preventing pins from being picked up and they will be swept away.

                For the 2nd ball operations, cam GB247 will cause additional lift on the strike selector until projection 578 on the strike selector pushes up on the bottom of the standing pins selector. This will push the standing pins selector away from the standing pins cam follower. The C shaft will rotate CW setting the machine into 2nd ball.

                Here are the excerpts from the patent explaining this. Also, figures 18 and 19 better shows how things work together. I have attached them as well and circled the critical components. Figure 19 shows GB270, GB271 and GB273 in profile and how they go together.

                Let me know if something is unclear or any questions you may have. As always, keep us updated.



                texta.jpg

                textb.jpg

                fig18_19.jpg

                Comment


                • #9
                  AMAZING....

                  Having torn down, cleaned, and rebuilt close to 100 detectors, it is amazing to finally have an understanding of what all of those different parts are, and how they are meant to work. I've worked with serial numbers from 3000 to 90,000, and to me, this is amazing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The first time I tried a detector rebuild was also the last time LOL. I managed to snap a chunk off of the Timing Cam and that was the end of that. Luckily for me the Head Mechanic didn't reem my behind because if we ever needed a complete detector, one was being kept at a sister center & we could call them up and either go get it or have it delivered.

                    I used to keep detailed notes on the detector sequences and what the component positions were at certain parts of the cycle. Proper terminology and everything. It proved kind of impractical to make my own technical reference since somehow every center I've been in never had any real disorderly detector malfunctions. I only recall removing one completely once so the Head Mechanic had a head start & could save time.

                    It's good though to see another in-depth analysis of the detector. Since I'm in a non-league center now, foul cycles are of no concern. The foul lights just illuminate and buzz obnoxiously to keep the bowlers away from the foul line and slipping on the lane oil. They're disconnected from scorer comm. and promote no foul cycles. No New Pins solenoids either, since open bowlers don't get a third throw in the tenth frame.

                    Before, all we needed was the New Pins solenoid on each machine and the "Foul" function (which could be turned on or off from the front counter computer) in the scoring software took care of the foul cycle and scoring the bowler an "F" on the console screen.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Very nice breakdown exM as always. This gives a very detailed explanation of the operation. In the documents did it say what the Mod was intended to do? Was for the "Practice Session" as I understand or for "Foul Trouble" reset or "Both"??
                      Everything has to be Somewhere !!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        mickeygm: So as far as the intended purpose, the patent says and I quote "An object of this invention is to provide new and improved foul control mechanism for a mechanically controlled automatic pinsetter." There are other reasons listed but this patent which was filed in 1960 appears to be an mashup to the original which was filed in 1955. A lot of the information in this patent deals with the basic operation of the machine which has nothing to do with this specific function.

                        It looks like they were just looking for a better way to handle fouls. Note that in post #2 of this thread I showed another system for doing the same thing. Both of these operate in a similar manner. The early version shown in this patent first trips the strike cam selector which then dislodges the standing pins selector. The newer version shown in post 2 first pulled the standing pins selector which caused the C shaft to rotate which through a link lifted the strike selector. So they both do the same thing, just in different ways.

                        It's also interesting to note that this was used up to machine 12,000. We can find this in the gearbox repair manual. I don't have the individual detector manual so unfortunately I wasn't able to see what it has to say but this is from the gearbox manual.

                        gbman.jpg

                        As far as your question on the practice session, I haven't found anything on that. Admittedly, I haven't read the entire patent. I can tell you that originally, it was not the intended function but as you well know, original intentions are not always the final intentions. I can see how a switch could be added so that every time the machine was triggered, the foul solenoid was also triggered causing a new set of pins to be set for each ball. But it's important to remember that the early A machines didn't use electronic triggering except for the new pins situation which not only started the machine cycle but also pulled the standing pins selector.

                        So how do I know that wasn't the original intent. mickey, I think you will find this interesting. Below is the machine wiring diagram from the patent. Slightly different than what we all know today. Some things to note:

                        1) The system was designed to run on 110 VAC as specified in the patent.

                        2) Notice that there are two motors shown on the schematic identified as 40 and 12. There was actually a second motor that was specifically to run the shaker board in the pit. See picture below. These were controlled by C1 and C2.

                        3) Other than the main contactor, there were no other relays used. Everything was line voltage so no low voltage transformer. This included reset buttons on the ball return which exposed the bowler to line voltage but no more so than any other switch.

                        4) At least two switches were required to turn the machine on/off. One to turn it on and a second to turn it off. To turn it on, one of the switches in parallel with the contactor contacts was manually energized. This would activate the contactor and the contactor contacts would then hold the circuit on when the switch was released. To turn it off , one of the series switches was opened to de-energize the contactor and it would then shut off. According to the text in the patent, there were three pairs of these. One at the front desk, one as the mask unit and one at the back of the machine.

                        5) Ball lights were switched as they are today, except they were line voltage.

                        6) Coil 620 is the counter but it looks like they were still hashing over how this would ultimately work. The original design discussed placing the switch on the detector so it would trigger each time a new pins cycle was run. Ultimately, they decided to place it so the switch would trigger when the deck made a long pin setting stroke. It didn't list where the counter was to be placed but it was also line voltage.

                        7) Coil 580 is the new pins solenoid with a switch on the ball return and one in the back.

                        8) Coil 560 is the foul solenoid. It was powered by the "commercially available" foul units.

                        So, the original patent anyhow, didn't plan for this. Later ones might.


                        elec.jpg



                        switch.jpg



                        motor.jpg



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Oh, and as I write this, I just realized, there is no magnetic clutch. Guess I'll have to look into that.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Also in the patent, the cushion arms were supported differently. Instead of the link assembly and the shock absorber connecting to a solid rod going to the mounting legs, it had just a shock absorber directly connecting to the mounting legs.

                            After having a look at the spare detector, I am confident now that the lower arm on GB271 is bent in a way where it is making contact with the top of the standing pins cam follower arm.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by exMech View Post
                              Oh, and as I write this, I just realized, there is no magnetic clutch. Guess I'll have to look into that.
                              Must've been before they finished prototyping. I'll bet one of the engineers was standing behind a machine during its operation & experienced the foul noises (pun intended) and sight of a Turn Pan or Pin Guide Jam. Think of the sequential damage that would happen if a Pin Wheel pulley was simply keyed onto the jack shaft with no way to separate the counter-torque!

                              Then again, it could also simply result in the PW belt slipping & burning up.

                              Comment

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