Short turret belt rubbing against short link

[thebuch]

Hi all,

I've been looking at this for a little while now, and can't wrap my brain around it. I've got a lane where the turret started continuously indexing. Turns out that the short turret belt is touching the short link just enough to prevent the latch from going back over the roller on the stop lever. What's strange is that the short belt is not sitting level, the clutch pulley is sitting higher than the indexing cam. Not by just a hair either, it's pretty noticeable. Moreover, between myself and the other mechanic all turret clutches were rebuilt this past summer and painstakingly visually inspected (we were basically cleaning up after several years of crappy maintenance by a guy who didn't care, so we had to really be on our toes for any issues that may be of concern in and around the turret area when we were doing clutches). This machine does have a stamped indexing cam and split pulley.

As strange as it sounds, at first glance it looks like the indexing cam is lower than it should be. I know that I could probably get rid of the issue we're having by tinkering with the short link for a little bit and bending it, but this is really bothering me that I can't figure this out. This machine ran fine with 0 problems in the turret area all season until right now, and now it can't even get through one time around without hanging up. Am I missing something obvious? Thank you in advance!

What I have done so far:
-Checked short link to ensure it didn't get bent---OK
-Checked clutch to ensure spacer was in the correct place, not under pulleys.---OK, and I figured this wasn't the case anyway as bringing the split pulley down farther would only push belt against short link harder
-Checked bellcrank to make sure it wasn't bent or cracked---Looks ok and I replaced it anyway just to be sure, no change in problem.
-Checked slide plate, didn't know if a crack or bend in it could cause this---Looks ok but swapped it out anyway.
-Checked turret frame for cracks---looks ok.
-Stud that short link attaches to (in the front) is okay too---I thought maybe if this came out at all, it could push the short link outward and into the belt.


I can probably have the pinchaser take a picture today and text it to me, let me know if anyone wants a picture of the area.

[PJ]

More than likely the short link is bent up against the belt. Take a large screwdriver and insert it above the link and the small pulley. Pull down down to straighten the link. Or replace the link. Usually caused by a pin in the deck pushing up on the link.

[wepauls]

THE LOWER PULLEY MY THE WRONG PULLEY OR
IS UPSIDE DOWN

[Steve Stafford (JBEES)]

You may have an issue with the spider assembly. The height of the indexing cam is controlled by the position of the inner turret ring. If the bearing race has been worn enough, it would cause the inner ring to "droop" lower than it should...causing the indexing cam to be lower. Try pushing up on the bottom of the indexing cam and see if it goes up. If it does, you may want to consider rebuilding the ring assembly.

Just a thought...not one I am sure you wanted to hear...but nonetheless a thought to consider.

[thebuch]

Thanks for the assistance, everyone. Steve, that was the question that I really meant to ask, and totally forgot to: is it possible for something in the turret ring to make the indexing cam hang down further? That was going to be my starting point tomorrow when I went in. We have a couple of rebuilt turret rings ready to go, and as a matter of fact I just disassembled and cleaned our spare at the other center I work at, intending to put it in a lane there very soon. I'll check it out tomorrow and see if I'm able to move the indexing cam. I actually tried that today, but was thinking about it after I came home. I tried pushing up with the belt still on and didn't really see any movement. Maybe without the belt on I'll be able to have a better idea of what is going on.

In any case, I'll post back and let you all know what this ended up being. Thanks again!

[Steve Stafford (JBEES)]

Good luck...look forward to hearing about your findings.

[RipOwens]

you dont have the old steel turret cam on there do you. having the wrong combination lower pulley and cam could add to the problem

[Steve Stafford (JBEES)]

you dont have the old steel turret cam on there do you. having the wrong combination lower pulley and cam could add to the problem

This machine does have a stamped indexing cam and split pulley.

As you can see...he did state that he has the proper combination on the turret...so that should not be an issue.

Also...for those that are interested...the two style cams are not about the steel frame versus the aluminum frame. Although the only cam the steel frame used was the cast cam...you could put a stamped one on as long as you go to the centered drive pulley and are using the newer style short indexing link. (The original link was straight unlike the newer version that has bends at each end) The cast cam uses the offset drive pulley. This is due to the different height of the "sheave" part of the two cams. Here is a pic done with inner races with the cams mounted to them...turned upside down. As you can see, the sheaves of the cams do not line up.



Hope this helps in understanding the difference in the cams along with why there are two different drive pulleys.

[Kanga (James)]

Doesn't look upside down to me.

[keeth]

Doesn't look upside down to me.

Kanga please turn your avatar upside down so that we may more appreciate your perspective on things up here

[Popeye]

thebunch: You said you checked the short link and it was straight.
Steve says the new style link, which is for the stamped cam (which is what you said you have), is bent at both ends.
Maybe you have the old style link on.
Kanga: I like your sense of humor! LOL

[Steve Stafford (JBEES)]

The straight links haven't been available for many many years. Odds are that he does not have them...but I have seen stranger things. I have one here somewhere...I saved it for showing techs during my school. I will see if I can find it and snap a pic of it next to a newer style.

[thebuch]

Hi,
Yeah, no what I meant is that the short link wasn't inadvertently bent, like by a mechanic or a deck jam or something. We have the kind that is bent at both ends.
As far as the problem goes, I still don't have an answer as to why the indexing cam is lower than the clutch pulley. I did change out the slide plate guides and although there appeared to be a small amount of wear on the front ones, this didn't change the offset between the clutch pulley and indexing cam.

Update:Another thing I noticed Is that the bearing on the bellcrank is riding on the underside of the time delay gear. It's strange because there aren't any prominent wear marks on the gear like I've seen on others, leading me to believe this started occurring recently. The bellcrank stud hole is egged out, of course. With the PPP kit on there and the bellcrank stud in the proper place, the bearing rides the TD gear and the short link hits the belt. If you allow the stud to come forward into the worn part of the hole, everything is just peachy and works wonderfully. Same with the original indexing linkage, or everything brand new. It's been running that way now for three days with 0 issues. Ideal? No. Working for the time being until I can figure out what's really going on? Absolutely.

[Steve Stafford (JBEES)]

Is it possible that you have the bearings in the turret clutch backwards...meaning the top one is on the bottom and vice versa?

You stated that the mounting hole for the stud is damaged and the PPP kit will not allow you run the machine properly? Do you have a positive stop for the indexing latch? If not, I would highly advise going that route as you will be able to better control the position of the indexing bellcrank and its roller bearing.

[thebuch]

The bearings are in correct. Good thought, though.

No positive stop on the indexing latch. That may be the route we end up taking.