Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Stumped on this one....

Collapse

Adsense Classic 1

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Stumped on this one....

    So here's what I got. Over this last weekend had a bolt break on the Moving Deck Cam Follower shaft. I replaced the shaft and the cam follower with a new assmebly (the ear on the old cam follower that allows the flag to block it broke off). I also noticed that the cable from the deck jam tube was badly frayed, so I replaced the assembly. Now I have a situation where the machine will "flicker" as the moving deck just begins to retract at begining of new pins cycle.(between 0 and roughly 20 degrees). then comes on. I looked and noticed that it is pulling the deck jam tube and allowing the switch to open. Here's what I've checked....

    Deck cable adjustment is good.

    Also don't see any kind of binding in deck, loose bolts, etc.

    The one thing that I was looking for on here and could not find was which position the machine has to be in to check the moving deck for crowning... I believe it was a tech tip that showed the roller and the geneva cam with a gap, just don't know which degree to check this at???

    The kicker with this problem is it doesn't happen all the time I would say roughly 1 out of 5 cycles or so, and the customers don't notice. lol it just bugs me I hate it when things ain't right.

  • #2
    Sounds like a small type tube assembly, (cast type)
    rfm

    Comment


    • #3
      About 20 degrees Geneva rollers should be level
      from steve
      The most common reason pins wobble at that position is the moving deck cable...surprise!!! Yep, the cable is usually too short causing the geneva bearings to be too high in the slots of the geneva plates. As the gear box goes through 180 degrees, the moving deck cam follower will move...even though it is being blocked out by the moving deck scissor latch. There is a gap between the latch and the surface of the moving deck cam follower that will eventually contact the latch. As this gap closes at 180 degrees, the cam follower is moving. As it moves, the moving deck cables move thus moving the geneva bearings. If the bearings are too high in the slots before they begin to move, the moving deck will move rearward just a bit. Because the scissors are holding the pins tight and the heads of the pins are being held by the deck pads...which are mounted to the moving deck...the pins will pivot, moving the base of the pins forward. When the pins reach the pin deck, they are no longer straight up and down...and as they are released from the scissors as the deck raises, they will wobble. If you look at the shape of the rear slot in the geneva plate, it is cut in a way that will allow the geneva bearings to move up into the slot a bit and not move the moving deck...if the bearings are low enough to begin with. The common adjustment these days for the cable is to get the bottom of the bearing so it is even with the flat section between the two slots. In the image below, you can see that when the bearing starts at this point, any movement up as the geneva pulleys turn will translate into no movement of the geneva plate as the bearing will just follow the contour of the slot...at least for a short amount of movement. Anything further will move the moving deck.



      Hope that helps.

      AMF Bowling Tech

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Speir01,

        What you want to look for as far as the deck goes is the gap between the geneva roller and the slot in which the roller is in. That is checked just as the deck is about to come fully forward at the end of it's cycle. Shim the slides as needed.

        This is where the rollers are straight up and down.
        My father told me to never get old...I should have listened!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by speir01 View Post
          So here's what I got. Over this last weekend had a bolt break on the Moving Deck Cam Follower shaft. I replaced the shaft and the cam follower with a new assmebly (the ear on the old cam follower that allows the flag to block it broke off). I also noticed that the cable from the deck jam tube was badly frayed, so I replaced the assembly. Now I have a situation where the machine will "flicker" as the moving deck just begins to retract at begining of new pins cycle.(between 0 and roughly 20 degrees). then comes on. I looked and noticed that it is pulling the deck jam tube and allowing the switch to open. Here's what I've checked....

          Deck cable adjustment is good.

          Also don't see any kind of binding in deck, loose bolts, etc.

          The one thing that I was looking for on here and could not find was which position the machine has to be in to check the moving deck for crowning... I believe it was a tech tip that showed the roller and the geneva cam with a gap, just don't know which degree to check this at???

          The kicker with this problem is it doesn't happen all the time I would say roughly 1 out of 5 cycles or so, and the customers don't notice. lol it just bugs me I hate it when things ain't right.
          The machine may be stopping a little shy of 0.

          I'm with Roscoe. The problem can happen when you have the weaker springs in the small cast type deck jam tube; it may even only have one spring. It's also more evident with the the smaller DJ tube and the earlier 'A' style MD/scissor cam that has a steep shift profile that moves the deck very hard just after 180 and just before 0.
          Last edited by Kanga (James); 02-08-2012, 09:15 PM.
          Factory & Converted A-2 (US, Ger, Jap)
          Comscore ECT, Matrix & DuoHD
          Walker B, Sanction Standard, Original K, Flex Walker & Ikon
          Kegel C.A.T.S

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm with Kanga and Roscoe; but with reservations.

            If the moving deck was running smoothly until the cam follower shaft bolt broke, then doesn't; I'd look at the pin that rides on the deck jam switch. If the pin has steep sides, as the deck shifts, the pin will momentarily slide off the jam switch, and cause the deck light to blink. In a case like that, I would adjust the spring tube a little higher in its mounting holes. This will allow the pin to slide on the jam switch enough to keep the deck light from blinking.

            With that being said, I would look into what caused the cam follower shaft bolt to break in the first place. It could have been caused by a bind in the moving deck or the cam follower. A look at the bushings in the cam follower will confirm or dismiss a bind. Also, a look at the support shaft would be in order. Is it still smooth, or does it have marks indicating wear from the bushings? Since I'm not there, it's hard to tell. One thing for certain is that the cam follower blocking finger being broken is an end result of the bolt breaking. There is another cause for the bolt to break, and that is metal fatigue. Even a heat treated bolt will break from metal fatigue, although it's rare.

            As for the deck shifting, I'd look at the cam follower roller. Does it rotate smoothly, or is it binding? A slight bind can cause the deck to shift hard. Also, a rough edge on the cam will cause a similar issue. But, the main question still remains: what is causing the deck to shift hard after the repairs, when it wasn't shifting hard before?

            Comment


            • #7
              Spier, there is not much telling if the mdcf tab broke and took out the bolt or if the shaft bolt broke and took out the mdcf. Since it is running well except for the cable pulling the spring down momentarily I would go with the suggestions above about the tube assy. spring being weak since you did change the whole assy.. however watch the moving deck scissor cam at the moment it does it and see if the cam jerks as a worn key on the 1-1 shaft can cause the cable to pull if the cam slips on the shaft.
              formerly dunsel
              ITS NOT HOW MUCH YOU KNOW ITS HOW MUCH YOU CARE!!!!!

              Comment


              • #8
                You stated that ou replaced the entire assembly when you replaced the cable...is it possible that you left one of the springs out of the tube when it was assembled on the bench? Just a thought...
                TSM & TSM Training Development
                Main Event Entertainment
                480-620-6758 for help or information

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wepauls, if the genevas are too high it means the cable is too long and must be tightened not too short.
                  rfm

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Wepauls, that is the adjustment I checked and was ok. the rollers are straight across. and guys yes is is an A machine, and I did put a rebuilt cast deck tube assembly on it. I'll try replacing it, I have a stamped one as a spare as well. I never would've known this could create an issue. I'll post results after I replace the assembly.

                    Rip, I did notice that I could "wiggle" the 1:1 the night this started happening, then couldn't get it to move the following day. I'm assuming there is a worn key way in the 1:1, wasn't sure if it would cause this kind of issue though...

                    Steve, I'm almost 99% sure I have both springs in the assembly, but not willing to put money on it I'll definately let you know I don't recall having a spare spring lying around...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      yea...but you know how those springs can be...always hiding in places we never look.

                      Hope you find the answer...
                      TSM & TSM Training Development
                      Main Event Entertainment
                      480-620-6758 for help or information

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        would a bent deck post pin (where both pulleys mount) cause this?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          No, that's not likely.
                          Factory & Converted A-2 (US, Ger, Jap)
                          Comscore ECT, Matrix & DuoHD
                          Walker B, Sanction Standard, Original K, Flex Walker & Ikon
                          Kegel C.A.T.S

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Something has to pull hard enough on the cable to compress the spring(s) that are in the deck jam tube. What could be the cause is that the lower moving deck cable is wound too tight. As the deck begins to retract, the momentum causes the moving deck to continue moving rearward...pulling on the cables and then compressing the spring in the deck jam tube. The deck post for the cable pulleys being bent might be a clue that the cable is wound too tight...so although the pin being bent can't cause the issue...the fact that it is might point you in the proper direction.

                            So, either the moving deck cable is wound too tight or the spring(s) in the deck jam tube are too weak. (Or one is missing of a pair) The earliest version of the deck jam tube only had one spring in it and those springs had a habit of compressing when the deck shifted.

                            Hope this helps...
                            TSM & TSM Training Development
                            Main Event Entertainment
                            480-620-6758 for help or information

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OK well I think I got it. I replaced the deck jam tube with the newer stamped type yesterday. ran through open bowl and leagues without a flicker . the old cast one that I had must have had a weak spring (yes, both springs were there ). I found it kinda strange that this machine worked prior to break down with the old cast type, then had an issue after break down. perhaps this is why this assembly was left in the shop... another issue I've been doing this... people over the years not throwing anything out. Now out of curiosity, are the springs for the old cast type still available? If so, I would like to replace them with new, and reintall it in the machine... just for kicks.

                              Comment

                              Topic Starter RibbonScript

                              Collapse

                              Adsense Classic 2

                              Collapse

                              Related Topics

                              Collapse

                               

                              A2 1 to 1 Gear Box Cover Replacement Due to Crack

                              I am refurbishing two converted A2 machines that I will be installing in my home basement this fall. One of them has a leaking gear box and cracked 1:1 gear box cover. I have...
                               

                              Streamlane Mask Halo Lights

                              With huge thanks to "Toby" for all his help & expertise...my old masks now have for-real halo lights again.


                              ...
                               

                              Baddest Tool Chest In Town

                              Adios, motor boater!

                              ...
                               

                              Aluminum Repair and Welding

                              with our broken moving deck i have been asked to figure out if there is a way we can weld it back together in house for very little expense.
                              http://aluminumrepair.com/...
                               

                              Setting Table Harness Connections

                              Hi, guys.

                              We recently replaced our setting table harness and when the machine's run in diagnostic mode, we get 01, 02, 03, 04 + 09 errors, or when you place pins...
                               

                              check this jam...

                              the ball stuck the table up

                              ...
                              Working...
                              X