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  • very fast A2



    Wow, thats a really fast pinsetter speed! I count a 7 - 8 second cycle time. This is what the rake arms are saying! Im not sure if that is A2 speed or the faster Japanese A2 speed. Not for me. I just slowed mine down from Jetback to slightly slower than A speed. I notice a big change in frames per stop by doing this. The biggest call which has been reduced is respots. I think the slower speed allows for more time for the pins to fall over or straighten up before the deck goes to get them (so it is picking up less wobbley pins). plus the deck comes down more gently on the pins so this makes for more stable pinspotting.
    Nick

  • #2
    Back in the day i Thoth it better to have machine waiting for the bowler
    rather then bowlers waiting for machines to finish
    with gravity ball returns to get balls back to bowlers in 15 to 19 sections
    __________________________________________________ _____________________________
    If the machine is all find tuned. and properly maintained [ YES ] thy can run at that speed
    BUT with interdiction new balls ,oils , lane serifs?, it not practiced any more

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    • #3
      Now that's fast! Definitely Jap A2 speed, we still run full A2 speed but it's definitely slower than that!
      All I want in life is to turn wrenches and climb around pinsetters/pinspotters again :/

      Comment


      • #4
        Nick, the A-2 in the video appears to be running at a normal A-2 speed. The reason is that Japanese machines run on their AC line frequency of 50 Hertz; while American machines run at 60 Hertz. If you run a Japanese motor on an American A-2, the machine will cycle a little faster, due to the difference in line frequency. This is one of the reasons that Brunswick has so many different motor pulleys. It doesn't matter if the machine is set up to run on 110, 205 or 220 volts, it's the line frequency that controls the rotational speed of the motor.

        Another reason how the Japanese machine seems to set pins smoother is due to the scotch yoke on the 2 to 1. The yoke is actually a cam, and the cam "follower" is the bearing the yoke rides on, which is mounted to the 2 to 1. The shape of the cam controls how the deck lowers. The deck will lower fast until it reaches about two inches above the lane, then slows to spot the pins, then speeds up raising the deck. The deck lowering hook is the same as on any machine.

        Also, the rake sweep cam is slightly different than an "A" or JetBack. I believe that Steve Stafford has posted drawings showing the difference between the cams.

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        • #5
          I have worked on pinsetters that run at A2 speed. im not sure is the link above is at A2 speed or Japanese A2 speed which was a little faster. (edit- I just read toms post above about the power frequency..... I guess they just look a little faster than what I remember A2 speed to be).


          For me I don't think there is much of a point to have your pinsetter cycling at a speed that has the machine stop several seconds before the bowler gets their ball. When I went through and slowed down my pinsetters a couple of months ago, I used the time that it takes for the ball to make it to the rack as the determining factor for the size of pulley i wanted to use for the gearbox pulley. I will have to double check this, but I counted 14 seconds for the time it takes for the ball to make it up front. We have 1750 RPM booser motors on our accellerators (because we don't have retarders at our lifts) with 1.5" pulleys. Maybe 2-3 years ago I changed the accelerators from a 2-23/32" pulley to a 1.5" pulley....this increased the time it took for the ball to get back to the bowler, but it really had no effect on the time that it took our bowlers to finish their games. The leagues still started at 6:30 and finished at 8:30-45 in time for the second shift of leagues to start.


          Since I slowed down the accellerator pulleys (to reduce accellerator and ball lift wear and tear), the pinsetters came to an end of cycle a few seconds before the bowlers got their ball back. Slowing down the pinsetter would get the pinsetter cycle time and ball return time in sync and reduce some wear and tear in the pinsetter (it has also helped reduce some calls). So I achieved an approximate cycle time of 14 seconds by using a 4.75" pulley for the gearbox motor pulley.
          Last edited by Mechanick; 02-14-2012, 01:22 PM.
          Nick

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          • #6
            I agree, that is running about what mine are running here. 'Normal' speed. I know it looks blazing fast compared to other machines that have been slowed down but that vid is what I see all day.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by loadtoad View Post
              I agree, that is running about what mine are running here. 'Normal' speed. I know it looks blazing fast compared to other machines that have been slowed down but that vid is what I see all day.
              Its probably just a perception thing....it probably looks faster to me now since I have slowed down to less than A speed.


              Its funny....when I was testing out the pinsetter speed on a pair of lanes i was having all kinds of complaints from the bowlers because they saw that these pinsetters cycled slower. They were not finishing bowling any later, but they seemed to be irritated by the fact that they were slower. "There is something wrong with our lanes", "look at them, they look like they are sick". Every week the manager would tell me that the bowlers were complaining...she was trying to push me to put them back to jetback speed or get a move on with doing the rest of them. ( it was a different situation...I was being pushed to spend money on parts... I liked it! lol) She understood that there was no difference to their bowling time, but was getting fed up with bowlers who have nothing better to complain about (with some bowlers, if they are not complaining, they are not breathing!) Anyways as soon as I got them all done, there was no more complaining! I don't even think people realize that there was a 4 second + change in cycle time. The only time they seemed to realize it was when they were running alongside pinsetters running at jetback speed.
              Nick

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              • #8
                In my centers, it took the ball about 13 seconds, from the time the ball hits the front pin until it appears in the power lift. By that time a machine, running at "A" speed has completed its cycle. The reason that many mechanics have slowed down their machines is due to parts wear and breakage. Running at "full" speed breaks or wears parts a lot faster; and we want to keep that to a minimum.

                We have, also, discovered that the bowlers complete their leagues a little faster with the pinsetters cycling at the slow speed. The reason is that there are a lot less respots, and other machine stops.

                Remember too that the deck cables and scissor cables stretch over time. Lowering pinsetter speed reduces the stretching factor, which means less cable adjustments. And that's a good thing. One other little issue, and that concerns the moving deck cam follower. Running at the slower speed reduces the stress on the cam follower, its pivoting shaft and the mounting bolt. Those are a usual pain in the tush to replace; and it saves the 1 to 1 mounting plate from bending out of shape.

                I know of several centers, with A-2s, that have an FPS of over 2000; and those centers are running their machines at "A" speed.

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                • #9
                  The Japanese A-2 pulley was larger as the pinsetters were to be installed onto the 50 HZ grid in Japan. If that pulley was installed onto a 60 HZ grid...the time for a cycle was cut down to 6.84 seconds from the normal A-2 speed of 8.28 seconds for a complete cycle. Timing the machine above...it looks to be right at 8 seconds or so...so I would say that it is a Japanese machine with a Japanese A-2 pulley running on a 50 HZ grid or they have 60 HZ grid and have changed the pulley to the American setup. The time for a cycle would be the same as an American setup on our 60 HZ grid.

                  There are places in Japan now that have 60 HZ versus the old 50 HZ. East Japan has 50 HZ versus West Japan having 60 HZ. With these changes though...it would be possible to find a center with 50 HZ pulleys running on the 60 HZ grid. I have even seen them here in the states...we called the Japanese pulleys pie plates as they were big.

                  Just for fun I added the 27:1 setup and how long it would take to cycle using an American A-2 pulley...by accident of course as none of us would ever try doing that on purpose...

                  Last edited by Steve Stafford (JBEES); 02-14-2012, 07:24 PM.
                  TSM & TSM Training Development
                  Main Event Entertainment
                  480-620-6758 for help or information

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                  • #10
                    Almost had a 'hang up' in the 10 pin bucket at 2:34

                    We had Japanese A2's like that here at Perth at Mirrabooka Bowl (1982-1997). The first head tech there used to keep 'borrowing' nearly all of our spare spotting fingers at sister centre Fairlanes City (Model A's). Seems like nearly every time they had a moving deck jam they'd break a spotting finger - even with the microswitch working properly (they didn't have the mechanical deck jam protection kits).

                    They eventually slowed the machines down to about Model A speed in 1991. Looked really weird when the deck was setting new pins because they still had the scotch yokes.

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                    • #11
                      Someone tell the tech to put that electrical cover back on. ( if it will fit, looks like many wires hanging out ). And change the 5 pin deck chute.
                      There is light at the end of the tunnel - just be sure it is not a train.

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                      • #12
                        We have went from A-2 speed to Jetback then onto A about 5 yrs ago and our fps is over 2700 now on a consistent basis. Slow is the only way to go in my book. I am even thinking of going to Masternuts creepy speed in the future to get my fps even higher. Plus maybe another drink of two out of our bowlers.

                        Dave
                        When I die bury my balls next to the old bag!

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                        • #13
                          anyone notice the broken 5-pin chute? machine is too fast for my liking. ill take A speed anyday

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Steve Stafford (JBEES) View Post
                            The Japanese A-2 pulley was larger as the pinsetters were to be installed onto the 50 HZ grid in Japan. If that pulley was installed onto a 60 HZ grid...the time for a cycle was cut down to 6.84 seconds from the normal A-2 speed of 8.28 seconds for a complete cycle. Timing the machine above...it looks to be right at 8 seconds or so...so I would say that it is a Japanese machine with a Japanese A-2 pulley running on a 50 HZ grid or they have 60 HZ grid and have changed the pulley to the American setup. The time for a cycle would be the same as an American setup on our 60 HZ grid.

                            There are places in Japan now that have 60 HZ versus the old 50 HZ. East Japan has 50 HZ versus West Japan having 60 HZ. With these changes though...it would be possible to find a center with 50 HZ pulleys running on the 60 HZ grid. I have even seen them here in the states...we called the Japanese pulleys pie plates as they were big.

                            Just for fun I added the 27:1 setup and how long it would take to cycle using an American A-2 pulley...by accident of course as none of us would ever try doing that on purpose...

                            First time posting on anything so i don't mean to bring up a old thread or anything but all i know is that I'm really happy i stumbled onto this and that graph you made! I have Jap A2's at my center and they almost look like they're running at this speed and its a little scary to say the least. Ive been looking at different ways to slow my machines down and this just helped out a TON!

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                            • #15
                              First time posting on anything so i don't mean to bring up a old thread or anything but all i know is that I'm really happy i stumbled onto this and that graph you made! I have Jap A2's at my center and they almost look like they're running at this speed and its a little scary to say the least. Ive been looking at different ways to slow my machines down and this just helped out a TON!

                              First WELCOME TO BOWL-TECH


                              No need to apologias needed as we are hear to help any and all willing to benefit from the vast knowledge of this site

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