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  • Weird BO issue

    Okay first up we have Jap A-2s with AS-90 Command Network Scoring.... Monday I decided I was going to change the motor contactor in lane 40. The issue we were having was once maybe every couple months when it was turned on from the computer the lane wouldn't actually turn on. The motor contactor would just buzz. When they would call black out we would flip on the rear mechanics switch and the machine would pop right on up and stay running after we switched it back off and then all would be fine for a while... I pulled the original contactor out and opened her up to see how bad the contacts were. It really didnt look all that bad but I installed a brand new one anyway. As soon as I swapped in the new one I went up front to fire her up and low and behold the new contact was humming. Now back in April I attended an electrical seminar (which has been a great help) and was given a wiring schematic for 208v. All wires are in the correct positions including the jumper. I checked the voltage on the 24v contactor while it was humming and the meter read a steady 15vac. When I hit the rear mechanics switch I got 22.4 vac and the contact closed and the machine popped on.. While trouble shooting the machine i noticed our ball accelerator wasnt running. I flipped the box over to find 40's contact was burnt to a crisp. Now with the machine off I unplugged the cannon plug for the accelerator from the back of the control box and then fired up the machine.. As soon as I plugged it back in the machine would black out... So I thought it was the accelerator that was causing the issue since the contacts were 24v based.. Rewired the control box and all was good there and thought the problem was solved. Well I was wrong... Machine still stays blacked out until the managers switch or rear mechanics switch is hit. Ball accelerator works fine with out a switch.. I did replace the transformer on Wednesday cause the old one looked pretty burnt up and the coils were a lil loose. Still have same issue and im at a loss... Now sometimes 40 will kick on just fine from the computer but more often than not it wont without the help of either the managers switch or the rear mechanics switch. Machine is not blowing fuses nor are they getting warm \ hot..


    I did disconnect the 5 pin cannon plug from the control box and ran a jumper from A - B. She fires up no problem.. So im thinking the problem is between the front desk and the machine... Masking unit switch checked out, both ball lights, and all wires ran along machines frame... Now the center has been hit pretty hard over the years from electrical storms so we have gremlins all over the place. Im at a loss on what to do guys. Any ideas?
    Is the breaker off? Yes. I grab the wire.. Its hot.... I grabbed him. He bounced... I love 220 volts

  • #2
    Are you sure it is the contactor buzzing and not the motor start relay. Remove the electrical box cover with the power off. Turn the power back on. Turn the machine on with the scorer. Take something plastic or rubber and carefully push down the relay. If the machine stays on I would suspect the motor start relay may be bad.
    (Psalm 37:29) The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

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    • #3
      Command Network, if I'm right, uses a separate LIU control board. This board is packed with miniature relays that control the scorer and pinsetter 24V "lane on" signals.

      These relays on the LUI are known to go bad. You can source them through any electronics supply house. If you are starting to see things like you have now, or, you get lanes that will not come on, it is most likely the relays are going bad. I have in the past received boards for repair that had multiple relays burned out. The centers would move relays around on the board to make them work as needed. This was only possible because the board had more lane relays than were needed for the size of the center (24 lane control in a 16 lane house.

      A quick test is to swap LIU connections on the back of the LIU with another pair of lanes and you should see the problem move, if it is a constant problem. Yours is intermittent, and may be a bit harder to pinpoint.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Popeye View Post
        Are you sure it is the contactor buzzing and not the motor start relay. Remove the electrical box cover with the power off. Turn the power back on. Turn the machine on with the scorer. Take something plastic or rubber and carefully push down the relay. If the machine stays on I would suspect the motor start relay may be bad.
        im positive its the contactor thats buzzing... we dont have relays in our boxes
        Is the breaker off? Yes. I grab the wire.. Its hot.... I grabbed him. He bounced... I love 220 volts

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by jim_long View Post
          Command Network, if I'm right, uses a separate LIU control board. This board is packed with miniature relays that control the scorer and pinsetter 24V "lane on" signals.

          These relays on the LUI are known to go bad. You can source them through any electronics supply house. If you are starting to see things like you have now, or, you get lanes that will not come on, it is most likely the relays are going bad. I have in the past received boards for repair that had multiple relays burned out. The centers would move relays around on the board to make them work as needed. This was only possible because the board had more lane relays than were needed for the size of the center (24 lane control in a 16 lane house.

          A quick test is to swap LIU connections on the back of the LIU with another pair of lanes and you should see the problem move, if it is a constant problem. Yours is intermittent, and may be a bit harder to pinpoint.
          we have gone through alot of lui and siu boxes over the last 9 years ive been at this center so that makes sense.. Are the relays plug and play by chance?
          Is the breaker off? Yes. I grab the wire.. Its hot.... I grabbed him. He bounced... I love 220 volts

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sparky8302 View Post
            im positive its the contactor thats buzzing... we dont have relays in our boxes
            Actually...you do. If you have Japanese pinsetters, both the motor start "relay" and the motor "contactor" look the same. One is termed a "relay" while the other is termed a "contactor" You stated that you have 15 volts at the coil of the motor start relay when it is turned on through the scoring system while the voltage jumps up to 22 volts when you use the mechanics switch on the back of the machine. What this is telling you is the LIU is dropping 7 volts either through the connections or the contacts inside the LIU. The reason I suspect the connection in the LIU is due to the type of cables that are used. They are telephone style connectors if you have the unit I think you have. The current for the all of the low voltage side of the electrical box (except the time delay module) runs through these cables. If you had issues with the accelerator relay drawing too much current at one time...that current had to flow through the LIU. Not good. There is a better way of doing this that would remove that current from the LIU...wire a small relay in the pinsetter that would be turned on by the LIU and that new relay would then turn on the machine through the motor start relay.

            I can help you put something together if you like...I have done this in another center and solved their electrical issues from the LIU.
            TSM & TSM Training Development
            Main Event Entertainment
            480-620-6758 for help or information

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            • #7
              The relays are board mount and are soldiered in, they aren't that hard to change out. The difficult part is tracing the back connectors to the individual relay causing the problem. I guess the best thing to do would be to make a test connection to the LIU with a phone type cable and test the relays for high resistance. You might be able to operate them with a magnet, and look for high OHM's in the contact circuit.

              The phone cables are suppose to tie into the managers control switch boxes at the control desk, keeping the length of phone wire down to the minimal length as possible. I guess there could a bad connection where the old and new tie together. Check your group of eight terminal boxes on the curtain wall, seen lots of bad stuff there too.

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              • #8
                wow i really do apologize for the brain fart on the whole relay contactor statement.. ive been pulling my hair out the last couple weeks from many many issues at our center. its been a fly by the seat of your pants learning experience for me lately. but thats a whole other story.. but just to make sure we r on the same page.. the msr is the bottom right (24vac) and the msc is the top left (100vac)? all the mechanics ive worked under have always referred them as just contactors so thats prolly where i got confused ha ha... but yes you are correct on our style of liu... it is def the phone cable style.... now for the last couple of days we have not had an issue with it turning on... i fired it up first thing when i opened up the center this morn and it was used on and off most of the morn into the afternoon.... Steve i really thing it would be an awesome idea to set up a relay and would be a wise decision to prolly go thru the whole house to have a lil piece of mind.. but i know we are in talks of maybe getting new scoring. I know ive been hearing talk bout maybe leaning towards Vector. So if and when we do this upgrade, will we still be able to run the setup of an additional relay?

                Jim...... under the register is where we store our LIU and SIU and there is a cluster of wires back there and its a real mess.... Tomorrow morn im going to open up the LIU and take a look around and see if i can find anything thats a lil toasty or maybe loose and maybe trade the connections with 39-40 with 37-38 and see if i can get the problem to possibly move..

                Guys i really do appreciate everything. I cant stress that enough. Talking with you guys have helped my crew and I really move mountains in the back with cutting parts costs and really boosting the centers fps. Im going to bring my camera in tomorrow and snap some pics of 40's control box
                Is the breaker off? Yes. I grab the wire.. Its hot.... I grabbed him. He bounced... I love 220 volts

                Comment


                • #9
                  If you would like to do the relay modification...give me a call and I will walk you through doing one. Then you will be able to do as many as you would like. My number is in my signature.
                  TSM & TSM Training Development
                  Main Event Entertainment
                  480-620-6758 for help or information

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks steve ill have to take up on on that offer here in a couple days... ill look at the liu in the mornin and see if i can get the problem to move. so far since last wed its only blacked out once and that was today. so i may be calling BREX depending if i can get the problem to move
                    Is the breaker off? Yes. I grab the wire.. Its hot.... I grabbed him. He bounced... I love 220 volts

                    Comment

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