Electronic triggering conversion help.

[Marky_Mark]

Ok, Ive done a search on using cube relays to reset the machine in place of the TDM, but all I found was for Qubica scoring system unless I missed something or overlooked. So this is a long shot and it probably has been repeated so here goes.

We have jetback machines that use the cable triggering and dashpot hookup on the gearbox, NO TDM modules. I just recently found out I can use cube relays, which I am already converting and rewiring, cleaning, painting, the whole shebang to the electrical box and wire channel. I have a spare box and channel that I put on machine so it is not down while I redo the original box and channel. All connections are converted to molex plugs. Now my question is, we have Vector Plus scoring. Can anyone tell me if I can eliminate the cable triggering and dashpot by using the cube relay I am already hooking up. What is the wiring configuration. If anyone has done this with vector it would be interesting to know. It would also be easier to wire in everything while I have it off the machine. I currently have 12 boxes all done with cube relays, but it would also be neat to remove the old cable setup.

Marky Mark

[cuda96]

It is possible with the Vector scoring, as it will produce a signal to reset the machine, but to do that, and eliminate the cable triggering, you would need to hook up some way of starting the machine cycle. This is usually done with the recycle solenoid, which became standard on later model machines.
By installing the cycle solenoid, you could use a cube relay hooked into the scoring system to cycle the machine.

[Marky_Mark]

Cuda, part of what you said is already wired into electrical box, vector scoring uses the relay to trigger the machine when the shotgun does not trip, especially when kids bowl the scoring triggers the machine for them, Ive already got cube relays in 12 machines out of 28 but before continuing I would like to have the relay trigger the machine like a TDM if the rake does not drop at all.

Marky Mark

[cuda96]

Not sure I understand the question then. It sounds like what you want to happen already does, if the machine will trigger when the rake doesn't drop for kids, it should work the same all the time.
I'm not familiar with string triggered machines, but how does the machine trigger if the rake doesn't drop?
Vector sends a signal to trigger the machine after a certain amount of time (you can set the delay on the front desk computer) after the ball goes through the ball detect and the rake doesn't drop. This takes the place of the TDM if you want to use a relay instead.

[Ted]

Your electrical box may still be wired like an A, with the 3.2 fuse lead going to 6. If so, and you have masking units that want the first ball lamp to stay on in 2nd ball, you'll have to rewire the secondary so it's like an A-2.

[Marky_Mark]

The scoring does not reset the machine all the time, I did a test, I removed the spring that holds the cable trigger taught so when shotgun is tripped it would not push the actuator link back to trip gearbox clutch. Since the ball has passed the beam and the rake has dropped the scoring already has taken the picture of the pins and then assumes the machine has reset therefore the electronic triggering from the scoring system does not fall into effect. Since the rake switch clip has closed the switch the scoring will not reset the machine. Once the switch is opened again when machine returns to zero the scoring will reset if the ball does not trip the shotgun. Is this making any sense now.

Marky Mark

[cuda96]

Is the switch that controls the scoring hooked into the cable triggering, instead of hooked to the rake?

That is what I am getting from your description. If that is the case then you may have to move the switch to mount it on the rake. That way Vector will know if the rake has dropped or not.
The way I understand the way it works on a solenoid controlled machine, is that if a ball goes through the ball detect, and the rake hasn't fallen (closed the rake down switch), then it sends a signal to the machine to fire the solenoid (closes the reset circuit). If the rake does drop, the rake down switch is closed already and basically doesn't send the signal to close the reset circuit.

[Marky_Mark]

Cuda, the switch is not connected to the cable trigger, that itself is all mechanical, the rake drop switch that controls the scoring telling it to take picture or reset IF ball does not trigger shotgun is mounted on cross shaft that the turret support rods hook to with a clip on the upper rabbit ears that activate the switch via lever, so when machine sweeps and returns to zero the clip pushes down on the lever and opens the switch.

Ted,. We are using the 3 amp mini breaker, the one leg of that is going to #9 on TS2.

[cuda96]

OK so it is hooked up just like a non string machine.
You said that it only fires the machine sometimes, but if set up correctly it should fire it ALL the time if the rake doesn't drop.
How is the scoring hooked into the electrical box? You will have a 6 wire gray cord from the scoring system that runs into the box. 2 of the wires are attached to a connector that runs out to your rake down switch. Where are the other 4 wire hooked up? Also what are your values set at in the scoring system?
On ours we have "Slow ball" set at 7mph with a delay of 2500 ms. "Fast ball" set at 8 mph with a delay of 1500 ms. You might want to check the "Fast ball" settings to make sure you don't have an extra long delay or a zero value as that would cause the machine to, at least seemingly, not cycle if the rake doesn't drop.

[Marky_Mark]

Im not going to look at the values yet until I know that I can get the electronic triggering from the scoring to reset the machine whether the rake drops or not. Ok, the other 4 wires go like this.

White to TS2 11
Black to B on canon plug from masking unit
Red to TS2 6
Green to TS2 1
Orange and Blue to rake switch.

[cuda96]

The red and black wires are what allow the scoring system to turn the machine on and off. The white and green wire are what control the resetting of the machine.
With the white wire going to TS2 11, it leads me to believe that you still have the second cherry switch hooked up inside the electrical box. I don't remember right off hand what exactly that switch controlled, but I know it was part of the reset system, so that wire is probably fine where it is. I don't have that, so my white wire is hooked to TS2 12, which is the rake drop switch. The green wire going to TS2 1 kind of confuses me. My green wire is hooked into Y2, which is kind of the "common" for all of the reset circuits, basically a wire nut with 3,4, or 5 wires (depending on how your machine is wired), all tied together. I don't see how having it hooked to TS2 1 is doing anything to let Vector cycle the machine.

<Disclaimer>

I don't claim to be an electrical expert by any means, so if somebody with better knowledge of the electrical system wants to jump in, feel free.

EDIT to add:
Since you are rebuilding the electrical boxes, what I have done on the couple that I did, is eliminate the 3 prong managers control plug. With the vector scoring, you can control all of it's function(s) through the computer, you don't need to have the mechanical switches and reset buttons at the front counter, if you have them. This will take care of a couple of wires cluttering up the low voltage side of the box.

[Marky_Mark]

The cherry switch as you call it is not in the electrical box, and I am removing the managers control plug from the box, the techs from bruns installed the wiring as I posted, not me, when they opened the box and saw our configuration the first words out of his mouth were What the F@#K, then he scratched his noggin, thought about it, then realized where he had to hook the wires. All he did was add quick clips to the wires off the canon sockets and connected the scoring wires, all I did was follow where these wires went to, labeled them then disconnected them off the wires from the plugs and mounted them directly to the TS2 strip. But I did all this as I was rewiring the boxes to make them neater. According to where Im following there wires all of them are hooked into the recycle part of the electrical box be it the relay or mechanics switch in back. I thought bout moving the green wire from TS2 1 over to TS2 6 but they already have the red wire from scoring hooked on there. But regardless, this is how our vector setup is. So in other words, it sounds like I cannot eliminate my mechanical triggering and utilizing my cube relay to reset the machine instead thru the scoring.

Mark

[cuda96]

I wouldn't say that it is impossible by any means. If some of the machines will trigger some of the time without the rake dropping, then they all should be able to all the time. It is just a matter of figuring out which ones do, when, and how, and making the changes on the machines that don't trigger at all, or only some of the time.

The only real point of reference that I have is what I have worked with, and I have not worked with string triggering before. The second switch that I was talking about is not the one that was added with vector, years ago there were 2 switches mounted inside the electrical box side by side. The second one was eliminated from any machine made after 1965. The one that is still used today, is closing the circuit on the time delay that fires the solenoid on non string machines. This switch is hooked into the system thru TS2 12, Y2, and TDM 18. The one that was eliminated hook into the system on TS2 11 & 12.

It just may take somebody that is a little less "visual" than I am. If I could actually see what wires are running where, I would be able to figure it out. This trying to figure it out in my head, without any thing to actually look at, starts giving me a headache after a while, and I don't want to tell you to "move this wire there and try it" as I found out at my last house, there are way too many ways that people "engineer" these boxes to get them to work and don't care about how they are supposed to be wired, so the next person isn't going to go mad trying to figure it out.

[Marky_Mark]

LOL, now your confusing me, let me rephrase how our vector scoring resets the machine. Vector will trigger the solenoid to fire on all 28 lanes ONLY if the rake did not drop. So if I have all 28 lanes going with all kids that cant throw the ball hard enough to reset the machine then the scoring will reset all 28 lanes. Now, if the rake drops the scoring wont reset the machine. Here is another scenario, in the 10th frame if there 2 strikes, then 9 the machine comes down, picks up the 9 count, puts it back down, then in 10 secs the scoring put up a message to the bowler, 10th frame reset, here the scoring resets the machine for the bowler. So all in all, I am trying to get the scoring to reset the machine whether the rake is up or down, just a matter of where to move wires to do this.

Mark

[cuda96]

OK that makes more sense now

What is sounds like you want to happen is for the scoring system to control the triggering in all situations, and I don't think that just moving a couple of wires around it going to do it. What you are describing is what the time delay is designed to do.
Rake down, 1.5 - 2 second delay, fire machine.
Most people when they want the scoring system to control the triggering will just disconnect the triggering system. Mouse trap on my machines, strings on yours. The only problem with that, that I see, is the number of dead wood calls that happen, because the rake doesn't come down until the machine starts its cycle.
I don't know, I haven't tried it, but you might try just disconnecting the rake down switch from the system and see how it affects scoring. Not sure it will work, because it also blocks out signals from the ball detect and reset buttons when closed, but for no more work than it would take, it would be worth a try.
I'd try it myself, but right now I have a full house of kids.